20 Questions with Wendy
EPISODE 10 — 4 MARCH 2022
“They never really thought of you as like, an intellectual person who’s capable of doing research and seeing the world in a different way. I think designers think very differently. We see solutions that other people can’t see, and if you put designers plus other types of people who are not designers in the same room, think about what you can do when you’ve got both sides of the brain in the same room. ”
ABOUT THE EP
Grab a coffee and sit down because today, we're getting to get to know Wendy on a whole other level. Tracy asks Wendy everything she wants to know about Wendy's childhood, personal growth, struggles, friendships, and career as a designer.
THE DETAILS
What was Wendy like as a child?
Being a go-getter and dealing with burnout
Lessons from exchange
Being a good friend
Life as a designer at a Big 4 vs. agency vs. in-house
The origin story of Fin. by Wendy
Advice for freelancers
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Tracy
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast.
Wendy
We are on episode 10. Crazy.
Tracy
Its double digits. Very exciting.
Wendy
A milestone.
Tracy
Yeah. In today's episode, we're going to do something quite fun. We're going to interview a very special guest, Wendy San.
Wendy
Oh, pleasure to be here.
Tracy
Glad you're here. Thank you for joining us at A Seat at Our Table. So we thought it'd be a little bit fun to do 20 questions with Wendy to get to know her better off on a personal level and a professional level. A deep dive into her life.
Wendy
Yeah, hope you find my life interesting.
Tracy
If you don't, don't say anything, just pretend you do. So I think the first question we're gonna start from is when you were a kid. So what were you like as a kid? Like, what did your day in a life look like as a young Wendy?
Wendy
I lived in a townhouse complex, so I would say I spent a lot of time playing outdoors with my neighbours. And we had like a driveway. So obviously, it was a lot of like riding bikes, being hooligans around the neighbourhood. Rollerblading was a huge thing. But also, I think, spending a lot of time playing with my sisters as well. Like we had dial up internet. So we had to kind of take turns using the computer. So I would say a lot of it was spent with my sisters in a shared childhood with them. But yeah, a lot of the time was spent outside as well. So I would say very energetic. I loved socialising with other people, which is I think why I'm such an extrovert now. Yeah, I think that answers the question. Yeah.
Tracy
So like, the next question is, how have you changed over the years from, I guess, a kid to a teenager to now? Do you feel like you have kind of a similar personality, you know, similar traits or like, how have you changed?
Wendy
Yeah, I think as a kid growing up with like two older sisters, I always kind of followed in their footsteps. So anything that they did, such as the extracurricular stuff at school, sports, I feel like I always felt inclined to do it, because they did it. So I would say what traits that led to was kind of being very ambitious, with everything that I did, like always wanting to be the best. Never taking kind of like second places as, like, accepting it, kind of always wanting to strive for like, first.
Tracy
Is that because your sisters put that pressure on you?
Wendy
I guess, because my sisters were such high achievers. So in seeing that I was like, I kind of want to live up to that standard as well. But as a kid, you don't really know. And I think even in my high school years, that translated over. I was so involved in everything in high school, extracurricular, sports, and always wanting to do my best in subjects. And even choosing my subjects in like year 10, I ended up choosing very similar subjects to my sisters, like, you know, 3 unit math, 3 unit English. And my parents never put that pressure on me it was kind of just like pressure that I saw in terms of through my sisters and what they achieved. So I would say all in all those traits have carried through into my adult life as well. Always wanting to strive for better and I think it's a very kind of Asian household mentality, right? Like never accepting what you've given as kind of like the limit, to push yourself beyond that. And so I think that's kind of who I am now always wanting to do more and more and doing the best that I can to feel satisfied in a way.
Tracy
Yeah, I think that kind of goes into the next question is like you've always been quite a go getter, like you said, in high school you were involved in like literally everything. Now you are as well, and you're someone with a lot of confidence. You know what you want, you get it. So like how did that come about? Like were you always like that? Or was there like a shift some day where you were like, I want to do all these things?
Wendy
Um, I think one I'm probably just really selfish and just want to make the most of every opportunity. I say yes to absolutely everything. And sometimes it can be to my own detriment. And I'm really feeling that now where I've taken on probably too much but I think in terms of how that kind of attitude came about in terms of being a go getter, and being some with confidence, I actually think that came from my mum. Um, she has always been such a hustler. And I think seeing how hard she works, it's been ingrained in me that I should probably work as hard as she has, because she's given us everything. And so I want to be able to give that to myself, and then in the future be able to give that to my kids, you know. So I think while I'm young and have all that energy about me, I want to use it as best as I can. But I think things like confidence, my entire family, I would say, is quite quite confident, like my parents are quite outspoken. They've always been the kind to speak up if something's doesn't sit right with them. And I think that's kind of been passed down through my sisters and to me as well. And I think it's just like your values, right? And your family values, and you start to adopt those things, as someone growing up in the same household as like, you know, two older sisters and my parents, and yeah, so I think it was just like a natural process. It wasn't something that I decided on one day, but it's also just like, how my parents raised me as well.
Tracy
It's just your nature. I guess that's just your nature. So we talked about how you kind of have a lot of different interests, and you sometimes have a lot on your plate. Can you tell the audience like, what do you have on at the moment? Like, how do you manage all that?
Wendy
So there's a laundry list. So obviously, I have my nine to five, yeah, my job as a consultant. And then on top of that, ever since uni, I've been freelancing on and off. So that's the second thing. And then I've obviously got Finn by Wendy, which is my small jewellery business. That's not too busy at the moment so it's actually okay. But on top of that, you know, socialising with friends, playing social sports as well, trying to go to the gym, trying to balance all of that. And then on top of that, it's like looking for a place to move out to as well. Like, it's just all kind of come at once. And yet, I think I got into deep before I realised, oh, my God, I'm actually so busy, so busy that every week to feel like I'm in control and on top of everything, I need to time block in my calendar so I don't forget stuff, which is crazy because it's kind of like, you probably shouldn't have to live like that.
Tracy
What is what is time blocking for people who don't know?
Wendy
So I use Google Calendar. And then in Google Calendar, I put in specific time periods of when I'm expected to do something. So obviously, like 8:30 to 5:30 is work. And then I would put in like dinnertime, gym, one hour for this freelance project. And it's not so rigid that I have to do it all in that one hour, but it's just so that I know what's coming up and what to expect, or what to prioritise for that day. And when when you've got so much on your plate, I think you need to mentally prepare yourself for what you need to do that day. Yeah, otherwise, I end up procrastinating. And then I kind of put things on the backburner. But it also allows me to see where in my schedule, can I flex if, like tonight, I decided to go hang out with friends, do I have that time? Or do I have that luxury? Right? It may be a bit OCD for everybody. It works for me and it mentally prepares me for the weekend.
Tracy
I feel like if you have so much on your plate, it's just good to just put it down somewhere so you're not storing that all in your head. And probably seeing in a calendar makes it a lot easier to manage.
Wendy
I would say it's kind of like a schedule to do list.
Tracy
Do you deal with burnout? Like having so much on your plate?
Wendy
Yeah, I think about a week ago, I was like borderline on kind of the brink of like the tipping point, you know. And that was a moment where I was kind of like, okay, I took this step back, reflected, I've obviously taken on too much this time and that was my own fault. But I just need to finish all this stuff, especially with freelance, I've got five clients at the moment. I'm trying to just tick them off one by one. But then I've set a rule for myself not to accept anything else after that. And I think it's kind of like reflecting on how you got to the point that you are now. And obviously, for me, that was just accepting way too much. But then acknowledging like, I'm probably just gonna have to work through it, get through it. And then learning my lesson knowing that I should say no to stuff. Whereas if I did not have that self awareness, I think I would just keep going and going, it would get to the point where it's too late to kind of return. So now I'm kind of like, operating on, I wouldn't say autopilot, but I've just accepted my fate. And I'm just trying to get through it. Because I just know there's going to be an end to it. Yeah, it's not the end of the world. Yeah, but I would have to say about a week ago, I was like, quite stressed. I think it was that point of realisation when it just got to me that like far out I can't blame anyone but myself because I've got myself in this position. So it's up to me to get myself out.
Tracy
I feel like me and you in high school, we were literally saying yes to everything. And that's probably the mentality we carry on now. But now it's almost like actually, balance and mental health is also important. And you know, we're not as young as we were before, saying yes to everything, running on 100% all the time.
Wendy
Yeah, my partner brought up a good point, he was just kind of like, why would you put in 20%, say your effort is 100% and you've got 10 things, you're putting 10% into everything? Why don't you just focus on three things? And then you can split it up like 30% on this, 30% on this, and 30% on this, you're going to do a much better job. And you can put your attention to it. I actually am now struggling to focus because I'm always thinking about okay, what's next? What's next? And that just takes away from the attention that you should be putting into the task that's right in front of you. And it is a lot and you don't realise what it's doing to you until you're kind of in the thick of it.
Tracy
I wonder if it's because when opportunities are presented, like we feel like we don't want to miss out?
Wendy
Yes. That's what I mean by like, being selfish, right? I always say yes because in my head, I'm like, if I don't try this, I'm never gonna know. But it's about striking the right balance and knowing what opportunities are actually meant for you, and what opportunities you should pass up because they're not meant for you. And for me, the way that I judge that is usually by gut feeling like I think I've got a pretty strong gut instinct. And recently, I had like a job opportunity come up. And I thought about it for a second. And I was like, You know what, I actually don't think it's the right time and right place for me right now. So I'm going to pass the opportunity. And I felt so much better, kind of passing it on. Because normally, I think if I didn't have that self awareness, I would just be like, yes. And I wouldn't kind of take step back to reflect on like, if I say yes to this opportunity, what can I do for me versus if I stay where I am right now? What can that do for me? It's like jumping to the next big shiny thing. Yeah, is a really big lesson I've learned probably in the past year or so. It's like really easy to kind of just gravitate towards what seems really exciting at the time. But you also got to think about it long term as well.
Yeah, it's actually quite empowering saying no to things.
Yeah, it is. Especially like, I feel like social events, when I say no, or when I leave early, and I'm in bed early, I'm just like, I feel amazing. FOMO is not going to get to me.
Tracy
Yes. I love that. So going kind of back to reflecting on your life, do you have a favourite age, like an age that you really liked? Any, like pivotal moments or years that shaped you who you are today?
Wendy
You really know the answer. I don't even need to tell you.
Tracy
To the audience, just take a moment and think about what she's gonna say next.
Wendy
Exchange! I think I was what? 2017? So I was turning 22 that year. I would say yeah, that was the best year of my life. I mean, it was a craziest year, but it was the best year of my life. I think it was because it just pushed me to new heights in terms of putting myself in a really uncomfortable position or being in a different country. I think back to that time, and I'm just like, Damn, how did she do it? Like I was a completely different person. And I think I also felt a lot of mental relief, honestly, because being away from home, and being away from friends, I didn't have the stress of like, family or friend drama or anything like that, all those like social pressures. And I think I was truly living my best life.
Tracy
Yes, you were.
Wendy
So I think, yeah, and also, like, I kind of took risks that year, in ways that I would be quite, I guess, calculated about right now. I didn't think about what I was doing. I kind of just did it. And I think you live such a carefree lifestyle. It's kind of like you have no nothing holding you back. So you're just like, Yep, I'm gonna do it and you didn't even think twice.
Tracy
There's like no concept of like, personal safety when you're overseas.
Wendy
I think back to sometimes that I'm just like, that was a really dangerous situation. But, you know, I survived.
Tracy
So yeah, and I was talking to a friend about this as well. Like, I feel like when you're overseas, you literally feel invincible. Like I can do anything like out of character, whatever you do, like you can do whatever, it's gonna be fine. And then you come back, it's like stuff you'd never do in Australia or back home. Like I don't know, staying in a hostel, meeting friends, going out with them to the beach at randomly at night or whatever it is, hoppping into a car with a stranger. That is red flags in Sydney.
Wendy
Yeah, things that your parents told you not to do. Yeah, I think I did all of that. Yeah, but I think the reason why it's my favourite age is because I got out all that energy. Like after I came back from exchange, I feel like I well and truly lived my life and I kind of let go of all that crazy energy. And then I knew, like, you know, that chapter is close. Now it's time to focus on other things and prioritise. So I never felt like I missed out on that stage in my life where you're like party. Yeah, got it out of my system. And so that's why I'm so grateful that I had that year because I think if I was where I am now, without that year abroad, I would just be like, so devo about COVID, not travelling. I'm definitely like, I think you can relate in that, we're both very lucky we travelled that much. Because obviously, we don't know how long this pandemic is gonna go on for. And so that's what I mean by I got everything possible out of my system. So now, I'm prepared to move into the next step.
Tracy
You're not wondering like, Oh, what if like, I went overseas, what is it like backpacking, things like that. We've done all that already.
Wendy
Yeah, there's definitely things that I want to do more of like, I didn't really live the backpacking lifestyle, I lived out of a suitcase but there's definitely things that I think could be a level up from what we did on exchange. Yeah, that could challenge me further. But at the same time, I have no regrets. Yeah, it's the best feeling.
Tracy
So what I guess what motivated you to go overseas in the first place?
Wendy
It was part of my course. So I did a double degree, International Studies, which means I did a five year degree with graphic design. And in my fourth year was when I went overseas, yeah. And what you had to do was you had to learn the language for like, two years before you went overseas, and live overseas for a year as a as a requirement. When we were in high school, we did that program at UTS, and just listening to people who did the same degree, I was like, I want to do that, I want to live overseas. It sounds like such a crazy and wild experience. And I think I just never thought about doing it until I heard somebody else do it. And I was like, You know what, that's possible. And if it's embedded in my degree, my parents can't say no. And I think I don't even know why I picked France. I think like, I had that romanticised idea of what France would be like, and when I got there, I was kind of like, okay, this is so far from what I thought it would be. But it's fine. I'm here now. And I got to travel all over Europe. And I mean, I still speak a little bit of French, but it doesn't really come in handy at all.
What were your biggest learnings from exchange? Anything that you still carry with you now?
I think to the kind of really challenging moments. So you know, my first couple of weeks feeling really homesick. And then kind of having my phone stolen from me, leaving my phone in an Uber, it's just my phone dramas, but also having like, racist slurs thrown at me, being grabbed like by the arm or being grabbed on my butt at a festival, like thinking about those scenarios, I think, like, they're the worst case scenarios I've ever been through. And I managed to survive that without having family and friends directly around me. So it just pushes me to think I'm so grateful for what I have now. But also reminds me of what I'm capable of, if I'm ever in a situation like that. Yeah, those are probably some of my biggest learnings. But also, the fact that like, there are no boundaries in terms of what you can do with your life, if you want to go and live overseas now, I feel like that's so much more of a possibility than if I didn't go overseas and lived there. I would just feel like that's so far fetched. Yeah, but now I feel like it is definitely a possibility. So if I really wanted to, I can make it happen. And I think I wouldn't have that kind of mindset if I didn't go overseas.
Tracy
Yeah, like literally anything is possible. Wherever you want, you can make it happen.
Wendy
And like, the only person stopping yourself is yourself really. So I think that's probably the biggest learning from spending a year abroad because it's like, tried and tested and I did it for a year. There's nothing stopping me from doing it again.
Tracy
Yeah, I feel like we've grown a lot from year 10 to now. We're like what 25-26? Now at 26, is that where you would imagine you'll be like, right here?
Wendy
If you asked like, 16 year old me, that was how old I was in Year 10, I think I definitely would say no. I honestly didn't even think about what I would be like at 26. But at the same time, I think I'd be really proud of myself. You know, honestly, I think, pushing myself the way that I have in the last year. And everything that happened to me last year in terms of like having a concussion but also having like, you know, a relationship end and another one begin, all that stuff I never imagined I would be going through in my 26 years of existence. But at the same time, I'm really proud of everything that I've achieved. And I also think that 16 year old me would have been like, oh, Wendy at 26 would have like a five or 10 year plan. But I feel like for the past couple of years, or past year and a half, I've really been living in the moment. And I've never really let like, you know, a moment pass me by and felt like regret that I wasn't present for that moment. And I think that's the kind of mindset that I'm really proud of, because I could be easily thinking two, three years ahead. But I don't want to think about when I'm going to get married, or when I'm going to get engaged, like that stuff doesn't bother me, because it's kind of like, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. What's the point of planning so far ahead that you don't even focus on what's right in front of you?
Tracy
I love that. Inspiration for everybody. Live in the moment, people. The next question gets a little bit deeper. Do you have any insecurities or struggles you deal with? How do you manage them?
Wendy
I think, just weakness in general, like, I never want people to see me as a failure, or as someone who's got like weak spots, which is why I go so hard at everything. Because my own success is kind of how I think other people see me. And so I never want someone to think of me like, Oh, she said she was going to do this, but she didn't do that well at it. But I know that it's probably just me telling myself. So I'm very conscious of the things that I say to people in terms of like, I'm going to do X Y, Z. I only tell people those things, my plans, if I know I'm gonna actually do it. I just have this like, fear of like, not succeeding. And I think like, that will snowball into how people see me. And if people see me as a failure, I'm just like, I'm gonna have an existential crisis. I think I just think that like, yeah, failure and me, not a vibe.
Tracy
Like you're it makes you uncomfortable.
Wendy
Yeah, it really does. Which is probably why I just want to take on every opportunity possible. I never want to say no to anything, and I never want to tell somebody that I can't do something unless I've tried it and given a go. And then really showing them that Oh, actually, I can't do this. But it's the effort that counts, I think in my head. So if I've shown them that I've given it a go. How the other person sees me is like, they'll say, oh, like, you gave it a go, that's all that matters, as opposed to, Oh you're so shit at something. And I also never want to be like a naysayer and a Debbie Downer. Like, I think, because I don't like that in other people. I think that's an insecurity of mine. I never want to kind of be the person to put someone else down or be the reason why their energy levels are down as well.
Tracy
So speaking about, you know, other people, how would you describe your relationship with those around you? Because I think from my perspective, you're a really good friend and I think you have really strong relationships with the people around you. So I want to know, how would you describe your relationship with your friends and people around you and how did you build those relationships?
Wendy
I would say since 2016 or 2017, my circle of friends hasn't really changed all that much. All my close friends are like the same handful of people. And I really truly believe in the same that it's all about quality, not quantity. I would say in 2016, which was my second year in uni, I made so many friends especially through VSA, which is the Vietnamese Student's Association, that half the time I look on my Facebook and I'm like, Who are these people? I don't remember how I met them, but they're my friend on Facebook. But beyond that, I think ever since I went on exchange, exchange really showed me who my true friends are, because they're the ones that really tried to keep in touch. And then once I came back, it was kind of a sign of who I should rekindle with. And ever since then, honestly, my circle of friends hasn't changed. And I've just gradually built stronger and stronger relationships over time with them. And as you transition through the stages of your life, the people who stay for that and support you through it, and how they respond to change in your life, is a sign of the quality of the friendship. So say, like, you know, if you're looking for a place, how kind of invested somebody is, in terms of asking you, how is that going, the next time you see them, if they remember those details in your life, I feel like, all the people I have around me, are those types of people. They're truly invested in your life and for the right reasons. It doesn't necessarily mean you need to keep in touch with them all the time. But it's kind of like, if, you know, they will reach out to you to ask for time if they want to spend time with you. And I really value that because I know that at this stage in life, everybody's so busy with their own stuff. And so I try and make the effort to catch up with friends where I can. Booking in time, because you know that that time is coming up, so you're going to save the chat for then. And I think what drives me is, with my friends, I really like to try and celebrate their, you know, big life moments with them. I would say like, gift giving, that's not my love language, but I do like to, you know, celebrate those moments by doing stuff like that, like, you know, those nice gestures. And kind of putting thought into more sentimental gifts, or making a moment in somebody's life feel even more special. Because I know a lot of people around me don't like to celebrate themselves. But if you can help them celebrate those moments and remember those details in their life, I think that goes to show what a friend what type of friend you are, because you're actually well and truly invested in their life and for the right reasons. Yeah, so I think that's what really drives me. And I think I just want all my friends to know that like, I support them, you know, in everything that they do. And I think a lot of the time as well, what I've seen from my friends, Tracy included, is when I've been through hardships, people who have stuck around and supported me in those times, that's when you know, like who your true friends are. And I think because of the year that I had, that was what really stuck out for me. And I was just, I think even more grateful for the people that I had around me.
Tracy
Yeah, I think like building strong friendships like they take effort. And I think maybe in high school, it was less effort, because we are always surrounded by the same people. And you always have touch points with them. But like you said, going the extra mile for your friends, showing them that you care about them. I think that's so important now, because you don't get as many touch points anymore. You can put effort into showing your friends that you care about them. And it's something that you do really well.
Wendy
Yeah. And it's not like, you know, school where you see friends every day. But also you're like on MSN chatting, on Facebook chatting. Now people don't have time for that. And I, for me, I'm like, if you want to spend time with me, like let's tee up a time. And let's have a conversation face to face about how we're doing or a phone call. You know, I really value those moments, because I'm honestly, I don't have time to message people back and forth. And I feel like it's not a very engaging way.
Tracy
Yeah, I don't think it's a real conversation.
Wendy
Yeah, because you can just like look at the message and leave it. Whereas when you're face to face, you're kind of forced to be in that moment, talking to that person, responding to them, being genuinely engaged in the conversation you're having with them. That goes to show like what type of person you are and how you like to communicate as well.
Tracy
Yeah, I think kind of setting that standard. Like, I'm going to be here for you, be present and then other people can respond the same way as well.
Wendy
Yeah, yeah. And I think if what I'm doing is not reciprocated by my friends, like, I'm pretty brutal. And I'm just like, bye because there's no time for that. Like, if we're not on the same page, let's talk about it. And if we still can't get on the same page, then I don't think there's a benefit in being that friendship.
Tracy
Yeah, because it's not reciprocated. Okay, so let's move onto career. So after studying design, obviously, there's so many different routes you can take in design. I feel like when people refer to like, I'm a designer, there's just so many types of designers you can be so like, how did you decide what type of designer you wanted to be?
Wendy
Having the year on exchange, so when I was in 2017, when I was in France, I didn't do any course units in design. So all of that was left to my last year. And so I actually had the luxury of time to figure out what do I want to do in design and then how I'm going use my last year in uni strategically, to build up my portfolio to help me get into that industry. And I actually discovered user experience, UX and UI, and kind of fell in love with the idea of like building digital experiences, whether that's through an app or website, because obviously, digital is so big nowadays. So knowing that when I got into my last year in 2018, I geared all my projects towards that style of project. So UX and UI. And I would have to say, I was quite like tunnel visioned into UX and UI, but then actually, accidentally fell into consulting at Deloitte Digital, where I discovered service design. And the whole time when I was in uni, I was just like, oh, I need to pick a niche and I need to get a job at an agency that specialises in that. But I think when you go into a consulting firm, it actually opens up the doors so much more. So in my first year of being a graduate consultant at Deloitte, I tried everything from brand strategy to narrative strategy to proposition design service design, and I was lucky enough to be able to expose all of that, because that's how I decided where I wanted to go and eventually what I was passionate about. I realised through the five years that I had been at uni that I hate the execution process. I actually hate designing stuff.
Tracy
So it's not your traditional graphic design.
Wendy
Yeah, it's not. I hate output work. So actually producing the design. I'm also kind of enthusiastic about the research and the conceptualisation of ideas. So, you know, thinking of a really cool idea, what is the story around it? I feel like that kind of comes second nature to me. Whereas like, I get really stressed when I need to produce an output. But with that said, I still do freelance. So that's how I keep my technical skills.
Tracy
So I think everyone kind of thinks design is like graphic design. And it's like Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator, whatever. Do you use those tools in your job? Is that the type of work or no? It's bigger picture, like you said.
Wendy
Yeah, I would say my nine to five job is more big picture thinking. Really problem solving with design. So using like design principles and methodologies to problem solve. I'm not going to go into the detail but it's kind of like, think about design research, that's what we do. Whereas outside of work, when I freelance, that's when I use the tools that's more traditional graphic design, which people are probably understand a lot more easily. That's all about, you know, building something that looks really good, but also speaks to the brand values of the client that I'm working with. Whereas in service design, it's kind of like client comes to you. They're providing a service for a customer. And they're like, oh, we have this problem that we want to solve, but we just don't know how to solve it. And in service design, we do research and we kind of try and get to the bottom of the problem. And then we propose solutions on top of that.
Tracy
A random question but for somebody who does, like hasn't studied design in school or in university, can they become a service designer?
Wendy
Yeah, yeah. The other thing that I actually just remembered that's also on my plate is I started teaching at USYD. So I started teaching design computing, which is essentially like a UX and UI course. And I had my first class this week, and these are all students fresh from high school, and seeing how they talk about why they're passionate about design and what they want to get into, I'm just like, oh, my gosh, it's so refreshing, because they're so passionate about it. And they're really driven. They want to really live out their dreams and discover what they're passionate about in uni. And I was trying to explain what service design was to them. But the message that I really wanted to show them was that even though you're doing this specific course, what you end up in after uni, don't kind of box yourself into one role. It's possible that you're going to end up in something completely different. So don't kind of like think too narrowly about where you're going to end up because then you're not going to be able to see opportunities beyond that. I work with people who have studied commerce degrees, economics degrees, and they've just learnt how to do design research just through working. And, you know, it's just learning about the principles of design and like customer experience, and all that kind of stuff. And it's not hard to learn. Yeah, you just have to be passionate about it. And you just have to have a curiosity about you to be able to do the job. If you see it as a chore, then it's obviously not the right, like, career for you.
Tracy
I think it's like figuring out what type of work excites you or what type of things excite you rather than like, this is the role I want to go for.
Wendy
Or like subject matter, right? Like, what are the topics that you're actually passionate about? If your goal in life is like, I'm gonna climb the corporate ladder, you're gonna get there and you're gonna think, wow, what have I actually achieved in my life? It's just a role title. But what am I well and truly passionate about? You're gonna get to that point and you're not even going to know. Because you were never focused on that from the beginning. Whereas if you're focused on a topic that you're really passionate about, and you really want to drive change through that topic areas or that job, then you're always going to have a greater mission in life, as opposed to just climbing the ladder.
Tracy
It's the journey, not the destination. So what is the difference between like, being a designer in house, being at the Big 4, versus agency? Because I know you've had experience being a designer for these type of companies.
Wendy
So as a designer in house, your work, usually working for a single brand or single company, so you're really working on products related to that brand. So when I was at Bailey Nelson, which is an optometry brand, as the in house graphic designer, I was working on things like their social assets for Instagram, their store displays, like the posts that was going up the next campaign, the EDM, so the emails that you get advertising like a new product. And you have to really believe in the company to feel like you look forward to work, I would say. And I love Bailey Nelson, it's such a great brand and you know, how they design their glasses and their ethos towards optometry is very different to say Specsavers. Yeah, whereas in Big 4, which is consulting, you are working on a project basis. So you can get a client that can range from like six to eight weeks, and you're essentially kind of being contracted into the company to help them solve a particular problem. And so it's almost like you've been hired as a contractor, as opposed to kind of how would you say like, you're not invested in the company as much as you would be if you were in? And then agency, I would say the work is very output driven. So a lot of the time agencies work on like brand design, or if they are video agency, they're really working on video content. So it's as a client, you only really go to agency if you want something produced. Yeah, something very, very specific.
Tracy
So are there any assumptions about you or your career that bothers you?
Wendy
Oh, 100%, like, oh, you're a designer, so you make logos? And I'm like, yeah, I do logos but I do so much more than that. I think big corporate companies, the clients that I work for, one of the best feelings is getting them to understand why design is so important, and why design methodologies are so important. You know, a lot of the time I think, designers get tacked on at the end of a project to make things look pretty to make things look good. Like, hey, I've got a PowerPoint deck, can you make it look good? And that's kind of how my career started off, right? I was just really there for output driven stuff. But they never really thought of you as like, an intellectual person who's capable of doing research and seeing the world in a different way. Because I think, perspective, designers think very differently. And even the part of the brain that we kind of, like lean towards, we see solutions that other people can't see. And if you put designers plus other types of people who are not designers in the same room, think about what you can do when you've got both sides of the brain in the same room. So I think that's kind of how the design world is changing. And that's one of my aspirations. It's helping non-designers understand what design can do. And why you need to have a design team in your business to do that kind of work. As opposed to, hey, I need a poster, can you make that for me?
Tracy
And you need to involve them from the very beginning and not just at the end, like, make our slides look nice.
Wendy
Yeah. Because without contextual understanding, how can you make something look good if you don't understand. That's what visual communication is all about, it's like knowing the intent and the purpose of the piece of work. What does it aim to achieve? And then how can design help support that?
Tracy
Yeah. Cool. So if you weren't a designer, what would you be doing instead?
Wendy
Event planner. I mean, if event planning paid well, I think I'd make a bomb event planner. Like, I'm so anal about things, and I love planning stuff. And if the outcome is better, I'm just like, that's what I live for.
Tracy
I can see you holding a clipboard. And you know those mics?
Wendy
Like, can I get service to the front, please? Yeah, no, I'd definitely be an event planner, I think. And specifically, I think I would love to plan wedding. Because it's such a beautiful moment. I'd love to be a part of that.
Tracy
Cool. Okay, let's talk about Finn. by Wendy. So what is it? And how did it come about?
Wendy
So it's, like kind of on a hiatus. And I have to say, because I have a lot on my plate. But it started out as a COVID hobby. I don't know how I got into it. I think I just saw something on Instagram. But I was like, Oh, what if I make my own jewellery or my own earrings? And then yeah, I just bought stuff, some stuff off Etsy, like supplies. And then I started making earrings for like my sisters and I. And then I think a couple of people when I posted it on my stories, this is very, like, I think very common nowadays, when somebody posts something cool that they've made on Instagram, people instantly ask like, Oh, are you going to turn it into a business? Or you should sell that? Well, you should sell that. And yeah, I fell into that trap. So I started selling stuff. And as someone who's always wanted to own their own business, or kind of explore that space, I was like, this seems like a really good opportunity to do that. But without too much risk. Because handmade jewellery, it's quite like, it doesn't take off a lot of space, the supplies you buy are not too expensive. And it's not like a warehouse situation where I would need to hire out a warehouse and if I have leftover stock, I'm screwed. So it seemed relatively safe to explore that space of what would it be like if I was a small business owner, but it's such a flex, I have to say. Honestly, I think it's just for fun. I tell people that it's just for fun. And it really is just that. I don't think it's going to allow me to like quit my nine to five, and just run that full time. It's not sustainable. It's honestly just for fun. But I feel like I've had my fun. And I had the joys of creating branding for my own brand, which is really, really cool. Getting that printed on like things like pouches is always really exciting. Especially because my nine to five, I don't print anything out. And I kind of really miss that part of uni. So yeah, purchasing something tangible is actually pretty exciting, I would say. But I really learned a lot in the year and a half that I've been doing.
Tracy
Yeah, what would be like the biggest lesson from doing it?
Wendy
It's probably what you put into it is what you're going to get out. So if you put in all your time and effort into it, it's probably going to boom. But if you only put in like one day every two weeks, don't expect it to be a massive success. And realistically, that's what it is for me. I've just prioritise other parts of my life because I think I just never saw it as a sustainable thing that's gonna allow me to quit my job. So realistically, that's what it is.
Tracy
Do you make money from it?
Wendy
Yeah, I do. I make profit from it but I wouldn't say enough to be like, Oh my God, I'm an entrepreneur. Like I literally just make stuff to sell and the joy that it brings me seeing my pieces on other people is enough to satisfy like, why I started it, it gives me the purpose. But yeah, the intention never was to become a multimillion dollar jewellery brand, have my own storefront. Like, no way. Realistically, I knew that wasn't going to happen. So that's, I guess that's why I'm not striving for it and not putting more time into it. Because I just know, that's not ultimately where I want to end up. But I think I've just come to terms that like, it's not going to be forever. If I didn't try it, I would still be wondering exactly,
Tracy
Yeah. Cool. So you do a lot of freelancing as well, as you've mentioned before, like, how did that come about? And like, how do you find clients? I feel like when I talk to more younger people who are studying design, they want to know out about, like, how do you get clients?
Wendy
I think it goes back to that thing about my weakness, like not wanting to fail. And so I was like, okay to make a name for myself after uni, I should probably freelance and start to build up my portfolio. And so with that goal in mind, that's when I started to freelance and accept opportunities. I think it just naturally came about people asking me, do you do logos and stuff? And honestly, my first couple freelance clients, I would say, I didn't do an amazing job. I still look back to some of the stuff and I was such an like, naive designer still trying to figure themselves out. But now I only accept projects that I'm actually truly passionate about. So, if the client is coming to me, you know, I want a logo for my small business, but I also want like a brand strategy, I think about, is this brand something that I'm passionate about? If it's not, and I don't really care about the brand, I'm not going to work with them. And I think that is because if I'm working, if I accept the job, and I'm working on it, I want to feel like I'm enjoying it as opposed to feeling the dread, like, Oh, I just have to freelance after work, you know. And I'm lucky enough that a lot of people refer me to others. And that's generally how I find my clients. I've never gone out looking for work. And I've never put myself on sites like Air Tasker, or like Up Work and that kind of stuff because I think I would only do that if I was thinking about going freelancing full time.
Tracy
Do you have advice for people who do want to get more freelancing gigs? Like, how would they build their portfolio? How do they get the name out there?
Wendy
Yeah, build a presence. Your brand presence is massive. I think things like Instagram, you can harness the power of Instagram to be able to do things like that and build a presence in the community so people see your work. And then they think, oh, I want something really similar to that vibe so I'm going to ask them if they freelance. So yeah, kind of making a name for yourself, and then letting the people come to you. And that way you build presence for yourself. The people that you attract are going to be aligned to your vision as a designer, and the practice that you have as a designer. So I would say, yeah, be intentional with what you accept. And don't just accept things for the money. Because you're never going to feel satisfied.
Tracy
Yeah, I think there's a book called Show Your Work by Austin Kleon. I've read it and it's really good advice for artists, designers, anyone that wants to get their work out there like it's just like a matter of just putting yourself out there. Like not waiting for perfection. But like, actually, every week, I'm going to post something, make something and post it up.
Wendy
Yeah. And I think there's, there's no harm in that. I had friends in uni for like October, they will do Inktober, which was like, you know, typographic calligraphy drawings and all that kind of stuff. And that's because they were passionate about that. And they were good about that. I didn't do it, because I just didn't care for it and I'm lucky enough that people have referred me. But I've always been very intentional with who I've accepted. Because I've just noticed within myself, if it's a project I don't care about, and I've accepted it, then I never look forward to the work for them. And I'll never do justice to the work that they've given me and what they're looking for. So I think it's like a morals thing is well. So really think about, what is your design practice? What are you passionate about? How does that drive your decision making process when accepting projects?
Tracy
And how about like, money? Like, how do you figure out how much you charge or how much you're worth?
Wendy
This is such a difficult question. When I first started freelancing in like, second or third year, I was only charging like 30 bucks an hour. But honestly, at that point in time, when you've just started uni, you spend so much time on like a piece of work because you want it to be the best work you've ever done. You want to impress people, and you're so not sure of yourself as a designer yet. So you're figuring yourself out. And that takes time. And so I was charging 30 bucks an hour. And it was I think it was just based off what I thought other people were charging. But it's always a question that people are asking uni. Some people charge $75 an hour because they work fast. And they know in that hour, they can actually produce something productive. But for me, I knew I needed more time in order to produce something of quality. And so I charged like a lower rate knowing that I was going to work more hours on that project. So now I charge based on the types of projects. So if it's like a branding project, I charge like this amount of money, which is like a package. And this is how much they'll get in that. But I would say it's very subject to what you think you're worth. Yeah, how much you think your time is worth. And I figured that out along the way in terms of just what my nine to five salary is, as well. And so I try and mirror that in my freelance life as well. And obviously, for me, now I work a lot faster and I can produce things in a short amount of time, so obviously, I'm gonna charge more. So I would say if you're starting out and you feel like you need more time to produce something, charge less but knowing that you're going to have X amount of hours to work on this thing.
Tracy
Can you charge all that though? Like, do you feel like, you know, if you're really new and you feel like you're spending heaps of time on something, can you charge all that time?
Wendy
Yeah, you know, I generally like to ask clients the question, what have you budgeted for this year? And then I try and work within that. But I won't undersell myself. So I won't like overwork myself, just because the client has said, I want X, Y and Z. If they said like, my budget is $5,000, I would tell them realistically, this is what you're going to get for $5,000. And then I send them an estimated invoice. And if they agree to it with a breakdown of like, stage one, conceptualising the ideas, this is what you're going to get, this is how much it's going to cost, stage two, once you've chosen something, we're going to move forward with that idea, this is what you'll get at this stage. And then finalising the project itself is cost this much. So I really break it down for them so that they can understand where all the costs are coming from, as opposed to just giving them a single finger. Yeah, and being like, Okay, this is how much the whole project is going to cost. Because unless you help them understand what they're paying for, they're just gonna see the number as being something really high or really low. But also don't lowball yourself, you know, know your worth. And I think as more projects you do, if you undersell yourself constantly, you're never gonna be able to kind of push yourself to actually charge what you're worth. And for honestly, for a while I was doing that. I definitely charge a lot less than most people out there. So what I was doing was like, seeing what other designers were charging, getting quotes from them, seeing how much they price their packages for like a brand. And then comparing myself to that, like do your research, it's the same as searching for a salary right in the industry. You do your research for different types of roles. And then you kind of compare yourself to that.
Tracy
Are there situations where you would go up at a really high rate, and then they're like, Nah, I can't do that, and then is an opportunity for you to go, Actually, I can charge a lower rate for you?
Wendy
Yeah, but then you have to kind of be really upfront with them. And say, I can charge a lower rate, but this is what you're going to get, and cut out the kind of unnecessary stuff. I've had situations where I've said to client, it'd be really good if you get brand guidelines with this project, and you really help you because of X, Y, Z, but we can just not do that. And I could just say you don't have the budget for it and I'll just do logo for you. So making them understand why you've priced the way that you have and what they're gonna get out of it. And give them options. Like, in addition to that, if you want this, it will help you in this way, I'll charge you this much. But you should always open up the opportunity for like, we can discuss prices.
Tracy
Yeah. Cool. So here's a more fun question, are there any big bucket list items that you want to tick off in your lifetime?
Wendy
Hmm, that is a big question.
Tracy
Something that you've always want to do.
Wendy
Honestly, just hire a campervan and drive around Australia, that's one thing. I do want to kind of like take six months off work. It sounds cliche, but take six months of work, and just, yeah, have a career break. And really reinvigorate kind of my identity or challenge myself to be in different environments and see what how that can inspire my life. But I just never want to be still in the same place. Because I think that just leads to living a very stagnant lifestyle. And I want to be able to do that before I have kids. Because then it's not about you anymore. So that and probably like, either that, going around Australia or again, living overseas again for maybe three months. I think it's like the exchange, but 2.0 with money.
Tracy
Yes. With money and not being poor. No more like overnight buses, killing our backs and our knees. Anyway, to close off this, last question, what is something that you always wanted to learn?
Wendy
So this is actually very relevant because I'm starting a florist course soon. And I've always wanted to learn more about flowers. I'm obsessed with flowers. I don't know why. But I signed up for a florist course with Pearson's School of Floristry. And that was always something that I wanted to learn. I think flowers bring people so much joy and I love buying flowers for people. And so as a part of like my interest in the creative space, I think that's just another form of creation that I want to pick.
Tracy
I love that. The theme of this talk is like if you want to do something, just go out and do it.
Wendy
Yeah. Like, I remember looking at that course. And it was like $1,000 essentially. And I knew that it was a lot of money. So I wrote down a pros and cons list. But I wrote down the pros and cons list knowing that I always wanted to do. And the signs were, I was constantly looking at the course for the past year. And I was always sad that there were no openings. And so when an opening came up, it's like, Why did I even hesitate about it? Yeah, it was a no brainer, so just do it. Life's too short to like hesitate about things and live to kind of calculate.
Tracy
I agree. If there is something that you're always wondering about, thinking about, I think that's just already a sign enough to just go do it. Okay, so to close off, three dinner table questions. I feel like the whole conversation was a dinner table question. Okay, first, favourite food and drink?
Wendy
Drink, I love ice lattes, and favourite food, I love cake.
Tracy
Cool. Favourite city in the world?
Wendy
Can I do a country?
Tracy
You can do a country.
Wendy
There's just so many but I love Iceland.
Tracy
And then lastly, favourite song or artist?
Wendy
Okay, I don't need to think about this one. LANY.
Tracy
Okay, I knew that. Thank you for sitting down and letting me pick your brain on everything about your life. I think that was a really fun conversation. Hopefully the audience can get to know you a little bit more through that conversation.
Wendy
Yeah, if they drop off halfway, it's probably because I'm not interesting enough.
Tracy
If you're still here, you guys are the real MVP.
Wendy
Yeah, thanks for being invested in my life. But if anybody has any questions, obviously feel free to shoot a message through @aseatatourtable.podcast on Instagram. Yeah, DM me, people.
Tracy
All right. Thank you, everybody. Bye!