Helping Second Gens Overcome Mental Health Stigma (w/Kelly Lam, Founder of The Feel Project)
EPISODE 9— 18 FEBRUARY 2022
“The perfectionist identity has really taken its toll. A lot of the clients that I see, don’t realise that this is the peak of their mental health, that it’s an alarm bell and realise ‘I gotta do something about it’.”
ABOUT THE EP
Kelly Lam is an Asian Australian mental health counsellor specialising in cultural values. We ask Kelly all our burning questions about the second gen mental health experience, diving deep into intergenerational issues, system issues, overcoming stigma, and how we can take charge of our mental health.
THE DETAILS
Kelly's journey from personal breakdowns to becoming a counsellor
What's the difference between a counsellor, therapist and psychologist?
The cycle of intergenerational trauma
The Asian Australian mental health experience
Kelly's message for our listeners
RESOURCES & REFERENCES
Kelly and The Feel Project:
- Website
Mental health resources:
- Lifeline | 13 11 14
- Beyond Blue | 1300 22 4636
-
Wendy
Welcome back to another episode on A Seat at Our Table. Today, we have a very special guest and we are chatting all things mental health. So we've got Kelly Lam, founder of The Feel Project, who is an Asian Australian registered counsellor specialising in cultural values of people of cultural background.
Tracy
Kelly focuses on helping second generations understand how their cultural upbringing influences their mental health and learn how to create a supportive system of care that best serves them. Welcome, Kelly.
Kelly
Thank you, girls. Thank you for having me.
Tracy
Thank you so much for joining us today, Kelly. We are so excited to have you on the podcast. Shall we just kick off and start with the first question?
Wendy
Yeah, let's jump right into it.
Tracy
Yeah. Okay. So we want to know, kind of at the beginning. So tell us about your journey, how you got where you are today, like, what's your background, and maybe some key milestones that led you to where you are today in counselling?
Kelly
Well, I'm 33 years old, born and bred Aussie with an Asian face. My parents come from, well escaped Pol Pot, Cambodia. And then yeah, sailed or really trenched their way through from there to Adelaide and settled here in Sydney. Initially, they were in Auburn but found that a bit too boring and then settled in Cabramatta and oh my god, look at the house prices now woman like, we'd be like millionaires. Yes. So, you know, ever since I was young, all I could remember really was my grandma bringing me up. I never had fond memories of any childhood. My parents were always working. And the only time that I would have any interaction would be when I get in trouble, how come I'm not eating rice, dobbing on me eating Red Lea hot chips or pork roll. And it was just the constant, I guess, you know, emotional bashing, which I didn't understand until three decades later. So going backwards, it was always meeting their expectations, whether it's my parents, my grandparents, aunts, and uncles. And when I talk about expectations, it was being compared to constantly by cousins, and my parents' friends. It's like, Oh, why can't you do this? Or why couldn't you do that? How come you're not getting any better? What's wrong with you? And these words, you don't really grasp at a young age, you just think, Okay, well, I have to do better, so don't get in trouble. And so that was a repeated thought pattern. And we don't know as a young child growing up, you know, going into teenage years and then going to uni, you actually carry that and suppress it without even realising the impact to you later on. So, in short, it snowboards really and where it took a toll on my mental health and not realising that mental health exists because it's like, I have food for you, why would you want to go out, you're wasting money, you know, I'll buy you a car if you don't have a boyfriend by year 12, or you can go on holidays so long as you're still single, or you know, when you finish uni, I'll hook you up with a Singaporean dude, you don't have to work that hard. So my mum especially, you know, she's a classic tiger mum. And when I was so down and unsure of what direction I had, like, after I finished HSC it was like, Well, what am I going to do my life like yeah, cool, I got a UAI and then what? There was no desire, no direction in what I wanted to pursue it. We hear so many times doctor, lawyer, pharmacists, my mum literally went through the rank and she's like, at least a pharmacist, you know, I can get you a shop, I can hook you up with this that. So the only thing I settled for was a bachelor of science in microbiology, because the only thing I had was great memory cells. It was all textbook, like five years here we go, 60k Hecs debt, why not? Throughout the upbringing, it was almost like it was a system within a system within another system. So we're not talking about just expectations, but in the Asian cultural community and Cabramatta, where your name is thrown everywhere. Oh my God, my daughter's a snake is your son a dragon? No worries, we'll make them compatible, let's get them engaged. And it's always something constant. And when our parents are so fixated on on the appearance, not losing face, and scared of being judged by others, we inherit that. And so that's why we are such perfectionist. And we thrive on that, because, you know, that becomes our identity. So, all in all, three and a half years ago now, and it still gives me the goosebumps, as Tracy would know, like anything mental health, and I just get these jitters because I experienced workplace bullying in a corporate environment and I had absolutely no idea what the signs and symptoms were. I would come home angry, I would come home, you know, blaming everyone saying, Oh, you're this that? You know, you don't know any better? I do. So I was very egotistical, very arrogant. Why I felt like that and why I felt entitled? Because I had everything. I had like loving parents, but their love was you know, providing money, food and a house. I graduated from uni. So I then had a full time job. So for me, it was like if I met all these expectations, I'm invincible. But no one prepared me not even my parents, which I felt like I had to blame them for some reason, that relationship issues or building a relationship with other people and knowing how to connect was the biggest value or life lesson that we struggled to teach and get to know growing up in a cultural family. And talking about feelings is absolutely in like clueless. We don't want your food mum because we're so sick and tired of pork and chives or the sweet and sour soup. I just want you to ask me how I am. You know, it's because I'm done meeting your expectations. What about me? So it was at that point, when I experienced workplace bullying, my whole body just really went numb. It was a feeling I would never never never forget. At that point, my manager did tap me on the shoulder and suggest I speak to someone. And it was like, Who the hell are you to tell me what to do? So it's just this constant recycling of why me? What did I do to deserve this? And you go through all these grievance process, it's almost like, am I ever going to be good enough for anyone and it always takes me back to when I was young. It was like I attended tutoring, I attended piano because I had long fingers according to my dad, so therefore, I had no choice. I ticked every freaking box. But I just did not understand why me, why choose me to be the person to be bullied. So I had no choice. I was really pushed into a corner and I took that first step. Saw a mental health counsellor. Yes, we connected. He understood, you know what was going on. But then there was that disconnect in terms of not understanding my culture. So when I talk about, Oh yeah, mum smacked me on the bum, he said, What? Like, isn't that emotional abuse? Why didn't you report it to the police? Should you? I'm like, What? It just threw me. And so at that pivotal moment was when I decided to become a registered counsellor within the Australian Counselling Association body. Because there was a gap in the market. I'm so sick and tired of you know, pretending that we have everything in our cultural community. When really behind closed doors, we are scratching our heads and questioning our identity, our worth, what is it more that our mum and dad want? What is it more that their parents want? And so that's my journey to date. It's really through the personal breakdowns, there was just that hope. Yeah, that breakthrough. And if it wasn't for someone to tap me on the shoulder to suggest that then I wouldn't be here today.
Wendy
That was there's just so much in that that. I just want to unpack and I'm sure we will throughout the episode. You know, Tracy and I can relate to so many of the things that you said about Asian upbringing. We've talked about some of it in our previous episodes.
Tracy
It's like when you said you were in the system. It's like we're in it but we don't even realise. It's like the matrix, right? Things that you hear from your parents, you don't even realise until something happens where you kind of step out and you're like, oh my god, like, something's wrong or something's different here.
Wendy
Yeah, you have all these like learned behaviours that I feel like you spend your adulthood trying to unlearn and kind of relearn about yourself and it seems like in order to do that, you need to go through so many periods of reflections and whatnot. And I think, you know, reaching out to like counsellors, psychologists, therapists, kind of help you do that and unpack that. I have a question. In your eyes, what's the difference between a counsellor, a psychologist and a therapist? How do you know who to speak to and when to speak to them?
Kelly
Yeah, great question. And this is where the stigma comes into play very quickly. We believe that the first thing you have to see is a doctor to then be referred to a psychologist, that within itself is the system, the Medicare system. And for us as a client or a patient or someone who's desperate for help, we believe that we have to be severely ill, to the point where we can't get out of bed or, you know, you keep finding yourself saying I'm depressed, I've lost weight, I can't even think, I'm scared to go to work, so we put ourselves in a detriment where it's like, oh my god, we have to like, be really, really, really sick, to then really, really get help. And the first thing we think of is the psychologists because counsellors are really left behind. And if you think about it, all we need is perspective, talk therapy. So counsellor and therapists are merged. They are the same, talk therapists, counsellors, psychotherapists, where you know, it's less invasive in terms of okay, here's some pills take it. The first question you would get from a psychologist would be, are you having any sleep? And your answer will be no. Okay, here are some pills for why. And this is the psycho education that any workplace, primary school, high school, even just the local community, should continue to encourage, is that we don't need a diagnosis. You don't need a doctor to diagnose you based on a questionnaire that you have depression. Because once you instil that thought, you will come out of the medical practice and go, Oh, my God, I got depression, I can't tell anyone now because what would they think of me? I'm going to lose friends, I'm going to be a shame to the family name. So you know that itself, we are still struggling to accept that we don't have to have a diagnosis to see a psychologist. Anyone has a free will to see a counsellor who is the right fit for them. Why allow a doctor to go through their, you know, filing system and go, Oh, yeah, Archie, the psychologist for you, when they haven't even heard your thousands of problems? And you know, it's like, yeah, cool, 10 free sessions, 20 because of COVID, so what? Just because it's free doesn't mean that you will connect with that psychologist, right? Because every session you will come out, you'll still pay gap fee. And you'll probably still come up with a new script. If it's not for antidepressants, it'll be for your stomach ache. Because as you would know, medication has side effects. Yeah, I get really aggressive because yeah, like, you know, we talked about intergenerational issues, then we talked about the system issues, and this is the biggest pile of mess, that people struggle to see the positives of counselling versus Oh, my gosh, I have to be really ill, and I might as well be silent to just get better myself.
Wendy
What do you think is the root cause of all that? Is it an issue in the system and the way that they educate people about what's available? Or is it partially our upbringing as well?
Kelly
Both. I mean, stigma has been around for what, 60 years. You want to talk about diverse culture, you want to talk about the gays and lesbians, you know, every year there's always a topic, domestic violence, so each I guess sensitive issue becomes dramatised through social media. On the back of that the government will just throw in free sessions or reach out to this organisation or reach out to that. So people have this idea that it's free. Like if I have to see a mental health counsellor, it must be free because I didn't see value, but I can afford 100 bucks to see a physio or pay $400 for a tooth extraction. So that does contribute, of course, because, you know, in Australia, I don't know about America, I think America is probably tenfold worse in terms of their system. But each household has a different perspective and view and attitude toward mental health. Some Asian families are close and are open. And we can't compare our upbringing to theirs. Because it's like, well, you know, if we compare, then that just goes into the whole self doubt of why can't my parents be like their parents?
Tracy
Yeah, I feel like at least from my upbringing, I've never even heard mental health as like a topic in discussion in the family. And even when times where I was like, Oh, maybe I should start thinking about mental health, I wouldn't know where to look, like you said, like, in this area, Southwest Sydney, or people who are Asian Australian, I wouldn't know where to find help if I needed it. And I think what you do at The Feel Project is the first time I've really seen anyone do anything like that. It was the first kind of encounter I've had with a mental health advocate or counsellor in this area. So can you tell us a little bit about The Feel Project? What it's about? And like, yeah, what you do?
Kelly
I mean, it's all about feelings. I did not discover feelings until I went through so much. And I'm not saying that my, my experience has been like crazy. Anyone has a lived experience will know because when you start to connect with people, we all have a shared experience or story. And when you start to open up and being more comfortable, you go, geez, the common denominator is feelings. Because you know, you say you're stressed. All right, no worries, I'm stressed, you're stressed. But if you break it down, it's because we're not being heard. That's all it is. How many times had my mum had vertigo and the doctor was so sick and tired of her going to his medical practice requesting a CT scan, and MRI scan, and ultrasound, and all the results kept coming back clear. And then he had to bite the bullet and go, Dude, you're stressed. And I remember at that time, I think it was probably just after HSC, third boyfriend, and he goes, Is there anything else going on in the house? And she looked at me and I'm like, Yeah, I got a boyfriend and that's why she's stressed. So when I look back, it all comes down to feelings. She was hurt. She was gutted, she she lost face. That's how she felt in her mind. You know, if you look at a parent's perspective, it's like, Oh, my God, how do our daughters have the capability to have feelings for a man? It's too young like too early. No, she's ruining my plans. So that's how The Feel Project came about. It's so universal, and you can have anything tie into it. And it's not just about counselling, it's sharing our stories, connecting with people and really, you know, having that new wave into our second gen. And that's why I specialise in cultural values, is because what's the point in seeing a professional when they don't get you? I can see any Tom, Dick and Harry as a counsellor, but what benefit is it for me? So that's the other part is I can't, you know, pick every person under the sun and go, Oh, my God, you know, I've got so many clients, what's the point, I'll burn myself out. I won't serve the person correctly or properly, there won't be any transformation or even change. So it's not only just a reputation, it's a risk to that person's well being. So, you know, we talked about system again, there is no point in being a psychologist and I'm just saying it is only my opinion, there's no point being a psychologist when you keep seeing the same people and there is no change. Refer when you know that it's out of your hands, and there's no shame in that in that itself. And hopefully you girls get to speak to a psychologist and get their perspective, because I would love to understand what their struggles are or challenges and what the benefits are.
Tracy
Yeah, a topic that you kind of talk about a lot is intergenerational trauma. Can you tell us a little bit about like, what that is?
Kelly
Yeah, I would say it would be probably dating back, you know, the Mulan days. You know, again, it's the whole expectation of role models, the respect of your elders, and it just passes down, you know, every time you have the family name, or the first boy is born, it is this whole idea of, you gotta, you know, be that man, that person where you hold the family together. It's usually on the back of the reputation or money, power status. So, you know, that is all surface level, right? And so when, when the family secrets start to happen, like divorce, affairs, broken family, can you imagine the next generation. Oh, my God, don't, please don't be like your aunty becayse you're going to have a broken family if you're going to be like your aunty. Or, you know, don't have too many kids, one's enough. So comments like these, we don't realise has affected our parents and grandparents in, you know, dating back. Because they were on survival mode for how long? So we bring it forward. Now we're in the digital world, we're in a modern 21st century, how many times do you hear them drop the word? Why you wasting money on a Chanel bag? And then you're like, Oh, it was only like, $1,000, you know, in market grade A. This is where the intergenerational issues just keep on repeating. It's never going to end. But where we can change is, you know, be more resourceful and being more intelligent, or emotionally especially, we are, I think, finding ourselves and I'm sure you guys agree that we are teaching our parents more about our lifestyle, our needs. And so I love using this analogy is The Case of Benjamin Button, as we get older, and our parents are old, but they're getting younger so they're so needy. I want my own space, man. Oh, you know, Kelly, when will you take me out to fine dining, but yesterday you just complained that it's like over $500.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Kelly
Mum's like but I'm turning 60 soon. I was like, Okay, what do you want?
Wendy
This is like my life day in and day out, like the opposite ends of the spectrum. You just feel like you can never win. As much as you want to give your parents everything I feel like, now I'm, I'm kind of starting to come to terms with what it feels like to put myself first over my parents' expectations. And every day, comments that they make, I kind of, like grapple with that and you're kind of fluctuating between do I live up to their expectations? But no, why am I living up to the expectations? I'm 26 now, so why do I have to? And I just feel like it's it's such a struggle, and it's a daily struggle, and I'm sure a lot of people can probably relate to that as well. Other than the kind of themes and issues that you've described about intergenerational trauma, is there anything that you also commonly see in like the Asian Australian experience in the people that you talk to or counsel?
Kelly
Yeah, 'I am not enough'. That is a key theme. And 'I believe I am a perfectionist'. Can't really see my hands everywhere to the guests out there. But the perfectionism and that identity has really taken its toll. And a lot of the clients that I see don't realise that it's the peak of their mental health. It's a sign of why their mental health is really like an alarm bell to them, I got to actually do something about this, I can't keep working overtime to please other people, I can't keep chasing the money because I feel that if I keep chasing the money, it will make me fulfilled, I can't leave any room for error because I don't want to get in trouble. So these comments, if you think about it, they still stem back to how our parents have been speaking to us. We've been taught for so long to respect our elders and you know, when you go to the shopping centre, buy some clothes and you see an elderly person or you go into the workforce and your manager is older than you, the first thing you know, being Asian is our work ethic, right? We're recognised for our work ethic but we lose ourselves where we don't have a voice or the courage to speak up, speak our truth, you know, contest other people's opinion, because our parents have already instilled in us, you have to respect your elders, don't talk back. So these are the minuscule gaps that affects us later on in our adulthood without even knowing that it's there.
Tracy
It kind of reminds me of our previous episode with Jason on impostor syndrome, the three of us kind of realised that we all were such perfectionist, and the same themes came up and it kind of traced back to like, yeah, like, maybe it's how we grew up with our parents expecting so much from us, and us wanting to do them proud as well. Feeling like we can't screw up because they've maybe given us so much, and we have to be like, 100% all the time for them.
Kelly
Yeah. And, you know, when we talk about perfectionism, I like to use, you know, similar scenario where it's like, okay, take away your parents, take away your family, your friends, who is there still left? Only you. So you're still accountable for your mental health and well being. Don't worry about your physical health. I mean, you can be a fat slob and just sit there and eat ice cream. But if you again, break it down, what are the emotional, you know, causes? You're sitting there slumped, watching Netflix, because you love drama, because that's what the brain is wired to. Because you're feeling like that you want someone to validate your feelings. And the reason why we struggle to admit that we have issues is because of shame. The embarrassment, people pleasing. Oh, my gosh, like, why are you talking about your feelings?
Tracy
With the clients that you see, what kind of brings them to you? You know, because I feel like there's so much stigma in this with mental health, like, are there common themes or like the tipping point for them to like, talk to you?
Kelly
I ask them, What is the key word that they type in Google? Anxiety and Asian. And so I appear onn their search and what has brought them to me is the story that I've put on my web page. Really, it's being honest and authentic and vulnerable. Vulnerability is the key to speaking their language. Because if I don't speak your language, then we wouldn't be connecting right now.
Wendy
Yeah, it would just be like a transaction like any anything else, right. And I feel like you touched on earlier, you were talking about how if they're not kind of the right match for you, or you feel like you can't help them, you would refer them to other people. But on top of that, I feel like being in this space as a counsellor and helping people talk through their feelings and whatnot, it can be quite overwhelming for you as well. So how do you look after yourself and your mental health as well?
Kelly
Oh, my gosh, I have like a handful of coaches and mentors myself. Being a mum of a three year old, I still to this day, don't believe that I'm a mum. And even that, and I would love to, like, you know, hopefully get to share this motherhood, you know, being a 33 year old, in your next episode, because I got married at 25, then at 29 I had my first daughter, and that itself was a period of expectations. And I had absolutely no idea. I did not have a desire. I'm getting goosebumps again. I did not have a desire to have a child. I can tell you that hand on my heart. It was more so again, I'm sure you girls hear it, you know, if you have a boyfriend, Oh my God, when are you going to get engaged? I've asked to Tracy how many times, she's like, dude just shut up, leave me alone, I'm living my life. And when I reflect back, it's like, Oh, wow, like I really did follow everyone else's expectations and lived up to what they wanted of me. And even to this day, my daughter is three but I see her just as a person. The connection between me and her is like more like a friendship. Not mother and daughter. So people questioned whether I had postnatal depression. I was like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, dude, I don't have to fall into this category to validate what you think of me. Just because it gave birth does not mean that I have to go, Oh my God, my daughter's this, I love my daughter, suns and rainbows, she's everything that I've got. I'm not missing that, but I'm not the one to prey on those feelings when they're not even there for me.
Wendy
Yeah, I think when people say, Oh my, my mum is like my best friend, I could never understand. To this day, I would never understand it. But it's kind of similar to what you're describing. It's like how you treat your child, it's like, it should really be like a friendship so they can feel like they can open up to you. Whereas I think with my parents, it feels like very distinct mother daughter relationship. And there's boundaries that you operate within, there are things that you tell them and things that you don't, whereas I've got friends who are like, Oh, I tell my mum everything, and I just can't fathom that.
Kelly
Yeah, I mean, it's a bit cringe worthy. But again, every family has its own dynamic. So, you know, some would say, Oh, yeah, my mum's my best friend. But then like, you'll be like, So does she cook and then they'll go silent, no, we eat out all the time. Like, yeah, so how I look after myself is really I do have a lot of support. It's taken me a lot of healing. In terms of my relationship with my mum, because so long, I saw her as a tiger mum, I hated her, I really, really did. There was so much angst and aminosity toward her. My dad's, you know, more of the silent person who's always in the background lurking, you know, ignorance is bliss for him. But with me and mum, we're always clashing. And it wasn't until probably in the past two years, ever since I've embarked on The Feel Project, she started to realise, wow, like, you're actually a counsellor even though you spent 60k in HECs. You know, that whole certificate on the piano just literally just sits there collecting dust. And she didn't realise that her daughter has the capability to help others, like that itself was hard for her to actually process. Yeah, it's changed quite a bit. And it's only been two years.
Tracy
How do you begin that process like healing your relationship with your parents? Because I think that's something a lot of people might relate to, like, distance or resentment towards your parents.
Kelly
When I experienced workplace bullying, I thought, surely she's gonna listen to me now, because back then I was 29 years old. So you know, we're all adults got, married anyway, so you know, we all settled, and I swallowed my pride and I said to her, Mum, I'm not coping at work and I think I'm not well. She goes, What do you mean? Like, you talk so much, you're so strong, like, what? How can you not be coping at work? Are you going to lose your job? Instant reaction. And I was like, No, I'm just telling you, I'm not coping and I think I want to find another job, and I might have depression. And she starts washing your dishes. Two minutes later, turns around and goes, you're not suicidal, are you? I was like, just listen to me, I'm just telling you because I feel like I need to speak to you. And she's like, oh, you know, people in China, the suicide rates are really high. So please tell me you're not suicidal. I walked off, finished dinner, like, goodbye, and that's it. So at that point, it was like, What's the point in even reaching out to you like, you're my mum, you can't even listen to me for one minute, let alone question whether I'm going to lose my job because you I'm telling you I can't cope. And then, I guess I realised that there was no point in telling her things when I don't have anything concrete. So in 2020, that's when I started to look into courses for counselling, I got my registration, because I wanted to prove to myself that I can do this on my own, get everything all sorted and have something complete. Because for so long, it was always, I'm going to do this but okay, so where are the results? So it was always that half met expectations and outcomes that she never believed in me. So when I got registered, had my first client in Cabramatta, then she was like, Oh, my God, I'm going to go to the doctor and start spreading the word for you. Like, no worries, you be the business relationship manager, it's fine. Yeah, that's how it happened. So for us, it still goes back again, right? We are accountable for our own mental health. So do something that you want to do for yourself, prove to yourself, not for others. Because once you've got that concept, and you get into that habit, then your parents actually go, wow, like she or he does have skills. Because they've always looked down on us, not in a demeaning way, but they're just never had that belief because they're so constantly worried, rather than seeing the benefits or the strengths in us. They constantly, you know, comparing us to others, why we are more or less than other people. So you know, it's more like a gift, do something that you, you know, wanted to do, take the risk, and prove not only to yourself, but to show them that you are something. And they'll never say to you, I'm proud. To this day, my mum has not said she's proud of me. But she does it in other ways in terms of you know, she's got my daughter now, so I can be with you girls. And that a show of appreciation.
Wendy
They really do it in really roundabout ways. And nothing is ever direct with them.
Tracy
We have to accept the fact that it is like that though, right? Yeah. I guess a lot of our listeners, I think most of them are the second gen Australians like, what's the biggest message you want to give second gens who are thinking about their mental health?
Kelly
Oh, my gosh, we are born with a voice, people. So you know, speak up, let go of the shame. Because the more you suppress your emotions, where are you going to be? Okay, I know this is an audio. But if you point your fingers, like, I don't know how to do this. So use the right hand, fold your three fingers down. So your pinky, your ring finger and your middle, and then you're left with a index and your thumb pointing up. We are so quick to blame other people, right? Look at look at your your index finger pointing out. How many fingers are pointing back at you? Three. So if that is not enough for you to realise, my gosh. You got to put yourself first get the support, and what have you got to lose? Ask yourself each morning, what have you got to lose? Is it worth you know, getting up calling in sick because you can't be bothered, when really, you've got a whole mammoth of issues that you don't want to deal with? You're okay to spend $500 at karaoke in the city but you can't justify $500 to see a counsellor who is the right fit for you to get your shit sorted. So you are value, listeners, you are enough. But it's not going to be enough if I only say these two words or three words, because it's not going to get through until you go through your own breakdowns or breakthroughs or whatever it is that you're experiencing right now. Just know that you can get the support and you don't have to feel guilty or embarrassed. Because you carry this with you. And by the time you get married or whatever commitments you're going to have, these feelings are going to keep coming.
Wendy
To build on that, I'm sure a lot of people are kind of wondering like, how do I even get started? Do you have any kind of resources or advice on how to start that journey of even just starting to think about your mental health?
Kelly
Yeah, um, there's heaps in terms of you know, if you want to go through the less invasive, Lifeline, it's a free hot line, 20 minutes to probably a 30 minute call, Beyond Blue, there would be your GP, again, if you feel comfortable and feel like you know, you're financially not stable. You can go through a mental health care plan. So there are direct ways to get to a place of okay, well, this is where I can start without anyone knowing if you really want to take it to the next step. I do encourage you to Google your your emotions, and then type in your location, and then what is it that you want because there are heaps of counsellors Sydney wide, where they do specialise in different niches and yeah, it's available Sydney wide.
Tracy
Yeah. And you do free free consultations as well, right?
Kelly
Yes, first 30 minute free consultation to make sure that we are the right fit. I'm there to listen to you, and then we'll work out a plan. So it's not a sales. A lot of time people think, oh my god, I have 30 minutes, what now? But I just don't leave you there hanging, we walk through it. If we're not the right fit, I can refer you to others. So it's not just about me, it's about you. In terms of free resources, yes, I'm on socials, Instagram, I do have a 'How to manage anxiety in a cultural household' workbook. So that's available on my website as well to purchase.
Tracy
Yeah, I can say that Kelly's resources are really helpful. Like anyone who's in our positions, I feel like everything I read on the page, I'm like wow, it's so relatable like, this is like me on a page. Well, thank you so much for talking to us, Kelly. Other than the socials and everything, is anything else you want to shout out in terms of where people can find more about you or anything?
Kelly
Ah, yeah, that's about it's www.thefeelproject.com.au. I'm sure the girls will share. But really, I just am so proud of the both of you to be opening that platform. We are coming a long way. And hopefully, yeah, people are starting to feel more comfortable and I'm sure they are, to go wow, like, how many more stories do I need to validate, you know, my feeling. And you know, the podcast is a great platform to, because what's the next step?
Wendy
I felt like through this conversation, I've learned so much about myself, and it's given me so much to reflect on. It's like it was a counselling session in itself. So I hope it's the same for our listeners. But yeah, thank you so much for joining us. As always, with every episode, we do do a little fun segment at the end. So we've got some dinner table questions for you. The first one is, what do you do outside of work? Do you have any interesting hobbies?
Kelly
Oh my gosh, I love picking on my daughter. Yes, I have to be her photographer and she does all these girly poses. I'm clearly a tomboy, so I don't know where it's from. When I pick on her, it's like I pull her pants down. I know, it's so mean. What else do I do? I just like bicker and just annoy her, and she's like, Mum!
Tracy
She's so cute. The second question, what would your last meal on earth be?
Kelly
Oh, Gong Cha. Large earl grey milk tea, less sugar, less ice, with herbal jelly and coconut jelly.
Wendy
You're Gong Cha veteran for sure. Last question, what is your favourite thing about being Asian Australian?
Kelly
We are so colourful. I mean, man, we are palatable. We are relatable. We're just just so culturally accepting. I don't know about how you guys feel but I think that us Asian Australians are more inclined to welcome other cultures, willing to try anything. I'm a bit sick and tired of people going oh my god. you eat cockroaches and dogs and you know, spiders. Yeah so what, it's exploring. But yeah, I think you know, having the diverse culture, you know, being Westie and then we inherit our parents traditions. It gives us more to connect with people, especially in our work ethic and the respect. Without that, you know, from our parents teaching us, what would we be as well.
Tracy
I love that. I've never really thought about us as being so like, open and accepting of other cultures. But that's so true. Like, I think that's a thing that I kind of see with our group of friends and everyone as well. Like, I love being Asian Australian. Cool. I think that wraps up all the questions. Thank you again, Kelly, for joining us on a Saturday morning.
Wendy
We'll pop everything that Kelly has talked about today in terms of resources and whatnot in the show notes, but yeah, keen for this relationship between all of us to continue. And hopefully as you mentioned, there will be a part two to this episode as well. Stay tuned, everybody
Tracy
Thank you, bye.