Navigating Imposter Syndrome as Asian Australians (w/ Jason Khou)
EPISODE 4 — 11 DECEMBER 2021
“I think the Asian upbringing definitely impacts our experiences with imposter syndrome. We set the bar high for ourselves and want to strive for the best, so when we don’t reach it, we feel like we’ve failed.”
ABOUT THE EP
How does culture impact our experience with imposter syndrome? In this episode, we sit down with our good friend, Jason, to discuss our experience with self-doubt and imposter syndrome in the workplace, where we think it stems from, and our tactics to deal with it. The focus of imposter syndrome has historically been on fixing the individual, but we discuss why fixing the organisation is more important.
THE DETAILS
The five types of imposter syndrome
The situations in which we feel imposter syndrome
How our Asian upbringing has impacted our fear of speaking up
Why imposter syndrome affects women and people of colour more
The impacts of being high achievers
Tactics for dealing with imposter syndrome and building workplace confidence
REFERENCES & RESOURCES
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Tracy
Hey, friends, welcome to episode 4. Today we have a very, very special guest.
Wendy
Our dearest friend, Jason. Welcome to the pod.
Jason
Hey, guys. Thanks for having me.
Tracy
You're welcome. We're really glad you're here with us today. How's your day today, Jase?
Jason
Oh, it was pretty, pretty good and early. Played volleyball in the morning.
Tracy
Yeah, we're athletes. So that's what we do on Sundays now. Wendy couldn't make it today.
Wendy
Yeah, because I was too busy socialising, you know.
Tracy
She was lying on the grass or whatever she was doing today.
Wendy
Was just soaking in the sunshine, you know, which is also very, very important. So, that's beside the point. You might be wondering, why do we have Jason here on our episode today?
Tracy
Today, we're talking about imposter syndrome. Highly, highly requested by all our fans, local and international. And I guess we wanted to bring in another perspective, to talk about impostor syndrome, because I think Wendy and I, we talk about it a lot in the context of, I guess, being female, being Asian, but we thought it'd be nice to bring in another person who's not female. He's Asian, but he's not a female. So it's kind of a nice to have a third person in the room as well, to kind of get another perspective.
Wendy
Yeah, yeah. So in this episode, we are going to share our experiences with impostor syndrome, we will reflect on the role of our upbringing and our cultural background and how this has impacted us. And also some tactics to work through impostor syndrome.
Tracy
All right, so let's start with an introduction from Jason, like, what is your age, your cultural background, what you do for work?
Jason
Yep. So I'm 25. I'm an Australian born Chinese, and I've been raised in Western Sydney all my life, went to public schools in the area as well, and then went on to study Actuarial Studies at uni, and have now been working at a consulting company for almost four years now.
Tracy
So, a little bit longer in the industry than Wendy and I. Jason, what does a day in your life look like? Maybe not a lot of people know what actuarial studies is like, even I didn't know before meeting you.
Jason
So because I work in a consulting company, it's a pretty client facing role. The work is pretty technical. So, we do a lot of modelling, we write reports for clients, we liaise with them, and we take them through our reports and present to them results, essentially, based off our work.
Wendy
Is it kind of like financial forecasting for companies?
Jason
Yeah, it's a lot of financial forecasting, it's also a lot of strategy advice, as well, um, how they can address some faults in the business, and most of the time, we deal with insurance companies.
Tracy
What does your team look like? Is it a big or small team?
Jason
We work in different projects. So generally, the average team would be around like five people. But then in big projects, we can go up to like 10 to 20.
Wendy
Wow, I can relate on the consulting part, but not so much on the financial modelling part.
Tracy
Yeah, it's good to have Jason here because Wendy and I are in the creative industry but it's nice to get somebody else from another industry for another perspective as well. So, before we jump into the topic, let's talk about how we know Jason, what's our friendship story with him.
Wendy
I remember Jason coming to our school as the new kid. And obviously, in high school, when a new kid comes to the school, it's a very big deal. It was year 10. We were like 16. And I heard Jason was extremely smart. And that was kind of my first impression of him. But over time, I got to know Jason. I don't know if we had classes together but we had something together and somehow we got to know each other. And we spent a lot of time studying together the library. I feel like in year 11, and 12. Yeah.
Tracy
Do you remember meeting Wendy?
Jason
Um, to be honest, not really.
Wendy
Did I not leave an impression? What?!
Jason
I mean, I think we had English together but it was just us being annoyances.
Wendy
Okay, I get it. How about you, Tracy?
Tracy
I do not remember meeting Jason. I remember what Wendy said, that Jason coming to the school was the talk of the town. Because you know, new kid in the grade very exciting stuff. But I didn't really become like good friends with Jason until probably after high school. We were always in the same groups, same parties, the same extended groups, but we never really like probably talked until probably after high school where we got closer and we're now part of the same friendship group.
Wendy
And now we're here like eight years later filming this podcast episode.
Tracy
Yeah. Do you remember anything from meeting us?
Wendy
We didn't leave an impression.
Tracy
Yeah, this is awkward.
Jason
No, I think I remember you guys were also the popular kids, like you guys were both pretty chummy with the teachers as well.
Wendy
What? Us, the popular kids?
Jason
Yeah, like the E-Blockers.
Tracy
Yeah, chummy with the teachers. Yes.
Wendy
Yeah, definitely, we were suck ups.
Jason
Yeah. And I think you guys did a lot of extracurricular stuff. So you guys are known for that.
Tracy
How would you describe our friendship now?
Jason
Yeah, I think our friendship is at the stage where we're comfortable with each other. We have fun. We play sports together. We also talk a lot of smack to each other, and be very annoying to each other, but then can also get serious when it comes down to it.
Tracy
Yeah, I agree. I feel like our friendship is like we can talk shit, but also talk serious. Which is why we're here, right?
Wendy
Yeah, exactly. Maybe we should jump into the topic itself, imposter syndrome. So, Tracy, tell us, what is impostor syndrome?
Tracy
Yeah, so the textbook definition of impostor syndrome, it's just feelings of self doubt, and personal incompetence that persists despite your education experience and accomplishments. It's doubting your abilities and feeling like a fraud. And it actually mostly affects high achieving people, and they find it difficult to accept their accomplishments. So while it's not a recognised disorder in the DSM, it's not uncommon.
Wendy
So for our listeners, the DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. So because it's not uncommon, it's actually very interesting that 70% of people will experience at least one episode of this in their lives. And it can overlapped with other conditions such as social anxiety, which I think we can all relate to. But how this kind of unfolds in I guess real life situations is, sometimes you might not believe that your successes are your own. And you might write them off to like timing and good luck. You don't believe that you've earned them based on your own hard work. And there's this fear that others will eventually realise the same thing. I don't think a lot of people know this. But there's actually five different types.
Tracy
Yeah, I didn't know this until we were researching this. I was like, Oh, cool. There's five types. And to give you an introduction to them, there's the perfectionist. So you focus primarily on how you do things, often to the point where you demand perfection of yourself in every aspect of your life. You might even avoid trying new things if you believe you can't do them perfectly the first time. The second one is the natural genius. You spent your life picking up new skills with little effort, I believe you should understand new material and processes right away. If something doesn't come easily to you, or you fail to succeed on your first try, you might feel ashamed or embarrassed. The third one is the rugged individualists or soloists. You believe you should be able to handle everything solo. If you can't achieve success independently, you consider yourself unworthy.
Wendy
The fourth one is the expert. So before you can consider your work or success, you want to learn everything there is to know on the topic. And you might end up spending too much time pursuing your quest for more information that you end up having to devote more time to your main tasks. And the last one is the superhero. So you link your competence to your ability to succeed in every role that you hold. As a student, friend, employee or parent, failing to successfully navigate the demands of these roles simply proves in your opinion, your inadequacy.
Tracy
So when I was reading this, I feel like I could relate to so many different aspects of them. But let's talk about what we relate to mainly, like, what's the one that we identify with?
Jason
Yeah, sure. So I think the type that really relates to me the most is that the natural genius, I think, compared to what I do at work, things in high school and uni, were a lot easier to learn. And so and also at work, everyone is just so smart as well, and they pick things up so much quicker than I do. And so I get confused that whether or not they just have more experience, or they're just naturally truly smarter. And so a lot of the time, I feel like the dumbest person in the room. And I questioned whether or not I'm really cut out for the job I'm doing. And then I always question whether or not I'll ever get to the position that my seniors are in.
Tracy
Yeah, I can relate to that. Because the natural genius is actually probably my primary one as well. I mean, I don't think I spent life picking up new skills easily. But I do feel that my competence is linked to how quickly I can pick up something. So if something's difficult for me, and I can't pick it up, then I feel like a fraud or I feel like, Oh, I'm a failure. So I think it's linked. It gets linked with the fear of failure as well.
Wendy
For mine, I am the rugged individualists. So, I pride myself on being able to do things on my own first to prove myself worth not mainly to others, but just to myself, that I can do something and I'm actually quite stubborn about this. And I will try to perfect something before asking for help. And it's not always the greatest thing.
Tracy
Oh, I can also relate to that. I think being the eldest child as well, I never like, I refuse to ask for help. I'm like, I can do this by myself. Even when like people hold my bag. I'm like, No, I can hold my bag myself. Are there any other ones that you guys want to call out that you can relate to?
Wendy
Um, I think I identify with the perfectionist as well. So, I tend to try and do things, not just to what is expected. But above that as well. I think subconsciously, it's like to surprise those that I am, I don't want to say serving, but the person that I am kind of doing the task for, I want to be able to surprise them to showcase to them that I have more abilities than what I present. And when I'm unable to perform something to the standard that I'm expecting, I end up focusing on the negatives. So this could be in a presentation, if I stumble over my words, I will replay that moment in my head over and over again, after it's ended thinking like, has anybody noticed that I stumbled on my words where they think I'm incompetent. And I just spiral out. And I think it kind of frustrates me because I want to do my best in any job or task I'm given. And I want to be able to give it my all but so when it doesn't pan out, I get really disappointed. And I think I think about it for days.
Jason
Yeah, I can also kind of relate to what you say as well. I think our set of proposed standards was open. So sometimes I'll get really bogged down by like the smallest things like after I finish a pretty complex project, and I forget to you know, ungroup some rows in Excel or extend some formula down, I kind of forget all the hard work that we put up into the stage and then just kind of mull over the small mistakes that I've made. And get kind of insecure that my manager thinks I'm incompetent because I wasn't able to do this small thing that anyone should have picked up. And then I kind of end up spending way longer on tasks that shouldn't take as long just to make sure that those things don't happen again.
Wendy
Do you have any like examples from your working experiences where this has surfaced up?
Jason
I think there was a small indirect comment that my manager made to me, you know, when I got promoted, he was like, Oh, now that you're a consultant, we can expect perfection from you, right? And like, I know, he has said that as just a passing comment and probably didn't mean it so seriously, but that kind of just reinforced the insecurities that I had already.
Tracy
Yeah, it's like when you have impostor syndrome, and people don't know you're experiencing it, and they make those comments, it just really heightens it, doesn't it? Yeah, it's a lot of pressure to put something on somebody. So, we've kind of talked about briefly on the five types and how we relate to it. But like, how often do you guys feel impostor syndrome?
Wendy
Oh, that's a hard question. I don't think you can quantify, like impostor syndrome, I think it's just like, in the moment, you become so focused in on the very, very small details when something goes like slightly wrong. And I think that snowballs incrementally over a period of time, and then you just question your entire existence and your career?
Tracy
So is it like certain situations then maybe, not how often, but what situations provokes it?
Wendy
I think it's like situations where you know that there's something on the line. So for me, a lot of the times, it's probably like client presentations is really high pressure environment, you know, you need to deliver. And so you put the expectation on yourself to deliver as best as you can. And when you don't reach that expectation, you kind of just end up in disappointment. And it's actually most of the time is not as bad as you think it is. Because after a lot of, I guess, interactions that I have with clients, we tend to debrief and get feedback. And a lot of the time, all the things that I thought I did wrong, actually, my team didn't even notice. I don't know if you guys can relate to that as well. Yeah, I think there are definitely common situations where it comes up. So for example, in meetings, and especially in meetings where I know, that I've prepared and like I know the answers to things, but then I just have this thought in my head that, Well, if it was important enough, someone else would have said it. Or like, you know, maybe what I'm thinking is probably not right, you know, or they might think that I'm stupid if I, you know, suggest something that's not correct. And so, yeah, generally meetings where it's a bit more awkward to speak up.
Tracy
Yeah, I'm like nodding, because I agree with everything Jason is saying. I also find it especially in meetings where you feel out of place, or you feel like maybe you're the most junior person in the room, or maybe you're the only minority in the room. I, in those situations, I feel very like anxious. I feel like maybe people were expecting me to speak up. But I also feel like what Jason said, like, can I add any value here? Like, are my thoughts going to be heard, or is what I'm thinking even valid? I have those questions in my head. But I know logically, I know, I should just be brave enough to speak up. But there's just something ingrained in me to not do it.
Jason
Yeah, and then it feels even worse, when like someone else says exactly what you think. Yeah, like, oh, I should have said that, and that's what I was thinking all along.
Tracy
Yeah, exactly. You're like, Oh, you know, I was right. Or you know, I do have something valid to say I just couldn't speak up for some reason.
Wendy
I'm curious to know like, what do you guys think if we dig a level deeper? What do you think is the reason why we fear speaking up?
Tracy
Yeah, I actually think that for me anyway, I feel like it probably has something to do with our upbringing. I think in Asian cultures, we're not taught to speak up, we're taught to listen to our elders, respect your elders, only listen, don't talk back.
Wendy
Yeah, I resonate with that so much, especially growing up with a family of four girls. And being the third, I think I've mentioned this in a previous episode. But I was always taught like, my older sister is the one who's right. And even though that was very, very frustrating, I think it was really drilled into me and subconsciously, that's translated into the workplace where rank and level is such a kind of a big part of framing my expectations of how I should behave in certain scenarios. But interestingly enough, in my new company that I've been at, for about five months, we challenge everybody to adopt a challenger mindset, which is about bringing forth your kind of your opinions and your if you have something to say that probably challenges what someone else is saying, The environment should be safe enough that you can do that. And I think that took me a long time to try and adopt because I was just so used to a very classic corporate hierarchy where whatever the people at the top, say, kind of goes. And so going into a more flat hierarchy, it became kind of uncomfortable for me to try and adopt a challenger mindset, because I really questioned whether or not I was, I had any value to add. And I think, to a certain degree, through my kind of ongoing experiences with trying to adopt this mindset, I've slowly started to build up that habit. But you kind of do it within reason as well, it's still uncomfortable to this day.
Tracy
Yeah, I think it's uncomfortable. But it's great to have a culture that promotes it and accepts it right and actually have role models that people who are encouraging you should do those things.
Jason
Yeah. It's interesting that you bring up the point of hierarchy as well, because in terms of your first question, yeah, like the things that Tracy said, with an upbringing and respecting the elders listening, and kind of refraining from speaking unless spoken to, also feeling the need to add value with everything you say, as well. Otherwise, you just feel like you're sidetracking or wasting time from the conversation. And then you think twice about speaking up because you feel like you might be judged and bad ideas. But then my firm also has a pretty flat hierarchy. And they emphasise that because they want everyone to feel like, you know, it's not just run by the seniors, and they want equal contribution from it from everyone. And I think recently, I've been able to come to terms with that a bit more and be more comfortable in speaking up. And it's kind of made me feel a bit more relieved in that, you know, sometimes, like, my principal and my senior managers are like, Oh, that's a great idea or suggestion, we should adopt that. You know, especially when I think like these are the smartest people that I know. And they're like, Oh, yeah, that's true. That's a good point. I'm like, okay, you know, everything I say, it's not just nonsense.
Tracy
Yeah, it's like getting practice speaking up. But like Jason said, the more you do it, you feel like, oh, you know, I do add value here.
Jason
Yeah. And the validation helps.
Tracy
Yes, the validation helps, I think.
Wendy
I think it really comes down to like your own self confidence, and having kind of very high levels of self esteem, to be able to adopt that mindset. And I think because of our upbringing, or because of what we're taught, those are things that we need to learn in our adult life, it's not kind of ingrained in us growing up.
Tracy
Yeah. So kind of to dive a little bit deeper into it, you know, we've done our research and research does show that imposter syndrome affects women and people of colour more than it affects other people. So this is probably why we can relate to it. Because, you know, we are people of colour, and we guess we are women. So, I want to know, you know, whether you feel like being a person of colour, affects that.
Wendy
Um, I think being a person of colour, and being an Asian woman is super tough, because I think when you look at the people that are around you, if you're not able to see somebody that looks like you, or is from the same background as you, you there's more anxiety added to your experience, because you're thinking it feels more impossible. And I think you feel like you need to figure it out yourself. Whereas, if you had someone you kind of look up to them as a role model and as a mentor, because they're kind of like living and breathing evidence that it's possible to get to say like a leadership role, or to be the challenger in the room. For me, which I've seen firsthand, and I think that gives me the confidence that I can do the same. And you subconsciously like, follow people's footsteps whether you know it or not.
Tracy
Yeah. Jason, do you feel like being Asian has impacted your impostor syndrome, your experience with it?
Jason
Yeah, I think the Asian upbringing, definitely, you know, like the things we touched on, like the respecting of elders and stuff like that. And obviously, just setting the bar high, and, you know, striving for the best. And when we don't reach it, we kind of feel like we've failed. But then also, I think, like, there are some benefits to that as well, like, you know, because Asians are also quite hard working, you kind of makes me realise how easy I have it, compared to what they did. And so in some ways, it kind of teaches me to be more resilient. And especially since my job is pretty high pressure, it's helped me cope at times as well. And to not, you know, kind of, I look on the brighter side of things like things could be much worse, compared to what my parents had done and gone through. And also, I think, like, being Asian, and being one of the first people in my family to be in a white collar job, you know, we're still navigating and figuring things out for the first time. So and also understanding that sometimes, the old school way of doing things of simply being hard working and doing as you're told, and not challenging elders might not necessarily be compatible with what is actually expected in the workplace where you're expected to speak up, and those that do kind of get rewarded as well.
Tracy
Yeah, it's almost like we work in a Western culture, right? Where speaking up, being extroverted, being a leader, is rewarded. And maybe that, like, the more Asian values that we have, being submissive or be more passive, is being overlooked. But it doesn't discount it, I don't think we should discount the value that we bring to the workplace as well.
Wendy
Yeah, I agree. I think there's this tension between kind of working in a Western environment, but bringing in your cultural values into that, and kind of navigating that tension manifests itself into imposter syndrome in a lot of ways. And I think that as you kind of gain more experience, you become more confident in yourself to like, speak up and challenge what is being said. So we've talked a lot about impostor syndrome in the professional contexts, but what about in other aspects of our lives? So things like university, part time jobs, even family and personal life? Have you both experienced impostor syndrome in either of those kinds of contexts?
Jason
I think I felt this a little bit through uni. But it was probably more apparent through work where stakes are a lot higher, and it was harder to hide. So it brought up my insecurities a bit more.
Wendy
Yeah, kind of feels like there's a there's a spotlight on you. Whereas in uni, it's like you're part of a bigger crowd. And you're kind of doing things just on your own. And when you receive marks, for instance, it's only for you to see, and you're not being like outwardly compared to other people. Whereas I think in a work context, it's very visible if there's a high achiever versus like a non high achiever.
Tracy
Oh yeah, that's true. Maybe it's like a team environment. Because I do feel like sometimes I do get a performance anxiety or impostor syndrome when I play sports. So we play a lot of sports between us. You know, we did basketball, we did volleyball, we did netball, badminton, you know, we've done oz tag, anyways, we're athletes. But sometimes I do feel performance anxiety when I'm in a team environment, because I feel like, Oh, if I do something wrong, or if I missed the ball, I don't catch the ball, then I just beat myself up and like, letting the team down. It's the idea of letting the team down.
Wendy
That's really interesting, because I'd like to think I'm pretty, like naturally athletic and so been always pretty good at sports. But I do kind of relate in the sense that if there's a sport that I play, and I can't pick up, my natural instinct is always to just give up. And maybe that's the competitive side of me.
Tracy
It's like confronting I think, it's confronting when you think you're like this perfect, perfect person, you have these skills, you think you're good at something, but then when something happens, that shows that you're not as good as you would like to be yet, that's confronting because it feels like, Oh, I could be better.
Wendy
Yeah. And I think it probably manifests itself more when you're an adult, because you're just probably more conscious about what other people think of you and what they will notice. Whereas as a child, you're more inclined to just do things without even second guessing, kind of like how other people will see you. And I think for me, it stems a lot from the fact that I'm a third child. And I always had to maybe work a little bit harder to prove to my parents that like, I have value. And I guess I didn't feel as noticed as my sisters were.
Tracy
Do you relate to that, Jason? Because you're the middle child?
Jason
Yeah, yeah. I've been the middle child and also the second child. My brother graduated from high school before me and did pretty well. And so I remember when my ATAR results came out, and my mum was standing there next to me, she saw my results. She was like, Oh, is that it? And so I think ever since then, I'd also kind of felt like I also needed to kind of do more to also make my parents proud. And like, I think even after finishing all my exams after uni to qualifying, they kind of didn't really seem to notice my achievements as much as I thought they would have. And yeah, I think that kind of made me a little bit just destroyed inside.
Tracy
Do you feel like we kind of get, like, not that we live for their praise, but when they praise us, we feel happy. And that's why we have to work so hard to achieve this, like, perfect, perfect standard, or whatever it is.
Wendy
Yeah, I think it's like, really, really drilled into us when we're a lot younger. So, you're like parenting and your childhood environment actually plays such a big part in how it kind of shows up later on in your life. And I think for us academic success, especially being Asian is a massive part of it. So, I think if you are very used to getting like really high marks, or being a really high performer in a school setting, and then you go into a different environment, such as a university setting, and suddenly you're not the top of the list anymore, or you're not the best, then you start to question whether or not like this course or dislike uni, is worth your while. And I definitely experienced that in uni, where in high school, I was kind of involved in pretty much every extracurricular activity that was out there. And I was very used to getting praise from like teachers and my parents. And then once I got to uni, I had no idea what I was doing, I wasn't getting great marks. And throughout all of first year, I was really questioning whether or not designed was for me. And in a way, I actually think that it humbled me because I stuck through it got to second year. And from then on, I think, once I started to focus on my own lane, that was when I was able to kind of combat those feelings of imposter syndrome. But when I got to a professional context, that was also, again, something new. And you don't really get praised, as much as you would say, in uni, because you can see it reflected in your marks, and the way that people give you feedback. But in professional context, I think you kind of need to search for those things yourself and give yourself the reassurance that you're doing okay, because it's not as evident.
Tracy
Yeah, it's almost trying to let go of expecting external praise or external rewards, and really looking within and seeing what makes us happy, or what we can do to feel good about ourselves rather than expecting praise from other people.
Jason
But also, I feel like it can be hard, because if our parents have always been kind of telling us how hard they've had it, and so therefore, like, a lot of your upbringing was also trying to impress them. And then when you don't receive that prayers from the people that are closest to you, the people that matter most, then you kind of just feel like, you know, no matter what you do, it's not going to be enough.
Wendy
Yeah, but I think we're at an age now, like, you know, we're all 25-26, where we're starting to realise that these are actually pressures that we just put on ourselves, but it's like stemming from all the pressures that we received from our parents or our family.
Tracy
Yeah, it's pretty overwhelming. Like there's a lot to unpack here. Yeah, it's just funny, because when I think back to the beginning of the episode, we talked about how impostor syndrome affects high achieving people. And this is an example here of three really high achieving people being affected by impostor syndrome.
Wendy
Yeah, it's kind of like a cycle, right? And I think you constantly go through it without realising that, like you face impostor syndrome relating to a particular situation, and then you get over it. And then there's something new. And then you get impostor syndrome again. So I think it's something that's going to be ongoing for the rest of our lives, given that we are high achieving people. But I reckon there are ways that you can kind of combat them one by one to build up more confidence. So it's not the first thing that you gravitate towards, like that mindset.
Tracy
Yeah. So what like, Are there any tactics that work for you to overcome impostor syndrome?
Jason
Yeah, so I think there are a few things that help. So for example, the first one is identifying where impostor syndrome stems from so that we know where to begin with it. So I think that in the episode, I mentioned that the natural genius type related most to me, and I think what's helped is gaining experience. And sometimes you actually won't feel like you've gained a lot of experience or knowledge. Because you're always in your own frame of reference. And it's not until a grad or an analyst asks the same questions that you did when you joined and you're like, okay, yeah, now I can answer these questions. And also sometimes, you know, like, you feel like you're picking things up along the way.
Tracy
Yeah, it's like remembering that everybody started where you were at some point, like your managers, your directors, they all were new as well. There were at your age at one point.
Wendy
Yeah, it's kind of a reality check when you need to mentor someone, because then you're like, oh crap actually know my stuff. Like I'm not as clueless as I think I am. And it's just a reminder that you are progressing more than you think you were and I think we forget to do that we forget to take a step back and look at all the progress that we've made as people and just like, give ourselves a pat on the back, right. And I think we just continue to focus on what's in the now and focus on the negative things like the mistakes we've made rather than the wins of the day, which I think are also very important.
Jason
And I think that kind of relates us to like the negativity bias where we generally relate, or we can think more about the bad things that we've done, and we kind of overlook the good things that we're doing. So you would react more negatively to something that or mistake rather than more positively to something that you've done.
Tracy
I think asking for feedback also really helps me like, when I don't know how I'm doing, asking the people around me for feedback to the how I can improve. But also what I've done well, like that helps kind of validate my feelings, like, you know, you're actually not doing completely shit. You're doing X, Y, Z well, but it's also areas of improvement. And it just helps really helps talking to people around you that can support you in this journey as well.
Wendy
Yeah, I actually used to really fear asking for feedback. Because in uni, when you ask for feedback about like design stuff, I feel like you just worked so hard on it, you don't want someone to just unravel everything that you've ever done. But what I've noticed, just through working and getting feedback from my peers is all the things that I am hyper aware of, and super focused on, my colleagues actually don't even notice that, they actually notice other attributes in me that I didn't even realise what my strengths. But also, inviting feedback has allowed me to become more comfortable with receiving it as well. So I used to fear asking for feedback. But now that I've kind of opened myself up to asking for direct feedback after say, like a presentation, I'm kind of more mentally prepared to receive that feedback, and then more willing to work on it, as well.
Jason
Yeah, and I think it also comes from the culture and the company as well, whether or not they foster and encourage feedback session. So for example, we had a feedback with my manager. And he said that, you know, I should step up and do this, and that, and I've been doing the things that I've been doing really well, and I think it's time for me to do other things. And, you know, I think that's really pushed me to do a bit more in my line of work, maybe a bit less scared to like speak up and feel that my opinions and contributions are valid and valuable, it also helps to clarify that it's just a voice in my head that's telling me these things, and other people don't really see it that way, even though we might.
Tracy
Yeah, I think that's nice, kind of, like what you said about, it's also about workplace culture. There's this thing about imposter syndrome, where you're fixing the individual versus fixing the organisation. Imposter Syndrome tends to put the blame on individuals. So like, you know, as we were talking, you know, it's because I can't do this, I can't do that, but it doesn't account for the fact that organisations also need to change to support individuals to speak up, be more confident and feel comfortable and supported in the workplace as well. So, it's not just putting the blame on an individual but it's also putting the focus on how organisations can support individuals too.
Wendy
Yeah, I think openly talking about it in a work context is so important. I recently had one of my senior colleagues, she put out something on LinkedIn, about experiencing impostor syndrome, and I think that was such a nice read, because it helped me realise that it's not just junior staff who are experiencing impostor syndrome, it's everybody, at all levels. And being able to see people go through that struggle as well but be vulnerable and talk about it so openly, and candidly, kind of reassures you that you're not the only one. And collectively, you're kind of all going through the same thing. So it opens up the conversation and kind of sets the expectation that actually maybe you don't need to know everything, and you don't need to be that person who's a perfectionist or to have all the knowledge in the world.
Tracy
Yeah, but the idea that you're not the only one is important too, you know. Being able to see people who are going through the same thing as you, that can really, really help and kind of sets the standard of what is achievable.
Jason
Yeah, I think also being able to see people in your organisation that are at higher levels go through the same thing as you and also people that have similar traits and characteristics. Like, for example, I've always been scared to speak up and at the senior level, I see my manager, he's also very introverted, and also doesn't talk as much but then seeing that it's a system that's based on meritocracy means that, you know, the expectation, the pressure there, might be removed a little bit and it's, you know, as long as you're doing good work and you doing what you're asked to do. Yeah.
Tracy
Yeah, it really comes down to diversity and inclusion in the workplace. Like, if you can see, like Jason said, people who have a similar personality, similar traits, in higher positions, then you feel like, oh, I can do that too. And for people who are marginalised, people of colour, if you can see people that look like you in the decision making rooms as well, that will give you the confidence to kind of do your best and not feel like you have to be scared or have to be anxious about speaking up.
Wendy
Yeah, it's kind of like it's been tried and tested and you know, that everything's gonna be okay. So if you want to go down that path, you kind of have permission to, but it's kind of like unspoken permission, and being able to see people who are kind of in a position that you want to get to gives you confidence that it's more realistically achievable, rather than it feeling like it's impossible.
Tracy
Yeah, and I feel like it's important for leaders as well, currently, like leaders and managers to understand that people, everyone's different, every individual needs their own like, support and not to make an assumption, and being able to support people's individual needs.
Wendy
I think if this episode taught us anything, it's the fact that three of us are going through something very similar, even though we're all in very different jobs and industries. But that gives me confidence that we're struggling together. But we're also figuring it out together as well. And being able to talk about it openly with you both has been reassuring for myself, I don't know if it's the same across the board.
Tracy
That was kind of a therapy session. Like I do feel like I'm not in this alone. And I'm sure we're not the only three people in the world experiencing this. Like we're all in this. We're all in this together.
Jason
Yeah. And I think having this discussion has also made me realise that imposter syndrome is just one term, but it encompasses a whole range of different types as well, and what everyone's going through, might be different from each other as well. Each one of us would have unique experiences, and the remedies and tactics in order to treat this will be different for each person. But yeah, it's all a unique experience.
Wendy
Yeah. So that brings us to the end of our episode. Thank you so much, Jason, for coming on and chatting with us. Like Tracy said, it was very much so a therapy session. How did you find the experience?
Jason
Yeah, I think it's really comforting and relieving to know that I'm not the only person in this world that that's experiencing this. But yeah, thanks for having me on the podcast.
Tracy
Thank you for joining us, Jason. Thank you for having a conversation with us.
Wendy
And taking a seat at our table. So, moving on to our favourite part of the podcast, dinner table conversations. First question. What were your thoughts on Shang Chi?
Tracy
Got so much to unpack. Without spoilers, right? Yeah, no spoilers. Let's give our ratings. So, my one is probably an 8.5 out of 10. I think it was a really, really good movie. Like, I feel like it made Asian culture look so cool. But if I objectively looked at it, it wasn't like the best movie I've ever seen.
Wendy
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think for us, the Asian representation is really what made it, I would personally give it an 8 out of 10. Because it's not the best Marvel movie I've ever watched. But the Asian representation really made it. And it was also really cool, because I saw some people that we actually know from South-West Sydney in it. And it was filmed in Western Sydney. So I think, yeah, knowing all those points is like bonus points.
Jason
Yeah, I'd also give it an 8 out of 10. Bonus points for the the Asian presentation too. And also, I think it also showed a lot of Asian culture and the traditions, without going too much into the movie.
Tracy
Yeah, the fight scenes are also really cool. And the soundtrack.
Wendy
Oh, the soundtrack was really cool. I think listening to the soundtrack before the movie was really awesome, because when you heard the music, you were like, Oh, I know what song that is.
Tracy
That's blasphemy. Doesn't that spoil like, the mood, like you're like, Oh, this is a serious moment now.
Wendy
Not really, because I actually think all the soundtracks were very like movie oriented. So without seeing it in context, I didn't really think much of it. And then once I saw it in the movie, it kind of made the soundtrack a bit more appealing. Okay, second question. Are you a morning person or a night owl?
Jason
Definitely a night owl.
Wendy
What are your hours like?
Jason
Probably up to 2am.
Tracy
What?!
Jason
On a weeknight, yeah.
Tracy
Oh, wow. For some reason, I thought you were a morning person? Maybe because you go on runs.
Jason
I mean, I probably should be for my work. But it also means i start at 10 o' clock as well.
Wendy
I feel like it disrupts your ability to concentrate though, at work.
Jason
A little bit. Yeah. Until we have that morning coffee, my brain's kind of switched off.
Tracy
Oh, guys, for those who don't know Jason, he's a coffee connoisseur.
Wendy
He makes latte art.
Tracy
And definitely do not have iced latte around Jason. No ice. Don't put ice cream in your coffee either. No sugar either.
Jason
Come to me for recommendations on cafes and coffee in Sydney.
Wendy
What's your favourite?
Jason
Ona
Tracy
Yes, in Marrickville.
Wendy
Yes, we love Ona. Tracy, are you a morning person or a night owl?
Tracy
I think I'm confused. Like I feel like I am not an night owl. I can't operate after midnight, but I can't wake up early enough either. So I'm like a 10am wake up type of person. So is that a morning person?
Wendy
Do you operate better in the morning?
Tracy
Yeah
Wendy
Yeah, then you're a morning person.
Tracy
Okay, then I'm a morning person.
Wendy
I mean, scientifically, I'm not sure. But I would classify you as a morning person.
Tracy
Thank you. I feel like I know myself better now.
Wendy
I'm also a morning person. I think in uni, I was actually like, I thought I was a night owl. I was always like, Oh, my best ideas come when I'm sleeping. Or when it's like, past 12am, and I have no one to distract me. But that led to me like virtually, like crashing. So I think in my later years of 25 and 26, I've become a morning person. And I'm a big advocate for morning routines now. It makes you feel so accomplished. Like you're really seizing the day.
Jason
Yeah, I wish I could relate.
Wendy
Last question. Do you guys have any phobias, Tracy?
Tracy
So it took me a while to think of this. But Wendy helped me in this department, I think I have a phobia of awkward silences. This is probably why I talk so much, because I'm anticipating the next silence and how I'm going to fill it. I just don't like awkward situations.
Wendy
Yeah. This is why we talk so much like Tracy and I just like, constant chatterboxes. We talk over each other because we just don't want it to be silent.
Tracy
There's an issue here. But yeah, I think it's more like awkwardness. I don't like awkwardness. Like, any situation where it's awkward, I'm just like avoid, hide, disappear.
Wendy
Yeah, but I think we're learning to not try to fill every gap.
Tracy
Yes, for sure. I think so. I think silences are very important. And being able to listen is important as well. So I'm something I'm trying to work on myself is to be comfortable with silence. And focus on listening.
Wendy
Jason?
Jason
I think a pretty common phobia is trypophobia, which is one I have. It doesn't really come up in like daily occurrances though but I think sometimes when I look at a strawberry close up, I get freaked out. So, I just quickly eat it. I feel the seeds in my mouth and all I can think about is eating those holes I try not to look at strawberries.
Tracy
Oh my God, I never thought about that eating a strawberry before. That's so scary.
Wendy
Now I'm traumatised because I kind of feel like I've got trypophobia, but I've never thought about strawberries in that way.
Tracy
So, for those who don't know, what is this?
Wendy
It's just like a fear of like, a lot of dense holes very close together. Oh my God, you can hear the fear in my voice talking about it.
Tracy
She's sweating.
Wendy
My phobia is a fear of deep water. I think this is also an probably another common one. It's like the idea of jumping into a body of water where you don't know how deep it goes. You don't even know what lives under there, could be a gigantic octopus. And so like things like jumping off a boat or jumping off a bridge or a cliff, not that I do it often, yeah, I have to think about it and kind of like gee myself up for it.
Tracy
In case you land on a turtle?
Wendy
It's just like, what if like I keep sinking it, I can't come back up to the top. But mine is not an intense fear. Like, I'll have to kind of anticipate it, think about it, and then do it. It's very calculated.
Jason
I also have that fear as well. It's pretty intense. Like I get it if I went to the swimming pool, and I went to the deep end. So I, whenever I swim, I'd go to the deep end and quickly swim back because I can't stand.
Tracy
Oh, that kind of reminds me. You know, apparently, there's a theory out there that all phobias that humans have is related to the fear of death. Oh, so like, you know, fear of heights, you could die from that, or deep water, you could drown. Like everything, the root cause of it is fear of death.
Wendy
Yeah, just 100%. I always say that, like, the one way that I don't want to die is drowning. Because I just think like about the suffocation and the process of... Okay, I'm not going to expand on it any more. Let's finish this on a high. Thank you, Jason, for joining us on our episode. As always, we'll link everything that we've talked about today and some additional references in the show notes. Tracy, do you want to give a shout out to our platform?
Tracy
Yes. Sorry. I always mess this one up. I'm gonna keep going, okay? So, reach us on our Instagram @aseatatourtable.podcast where you can answer our audience Q&A, and also on your Spotify platform. Cool. Thanks, Jason.
Jason
Thanks for having me.
Wendy
All right. Catch you guys next time.
Tracy
Bye!