Smelly Lunch Stories (w/An Le, co-founder)
EPISODE 76 — 30 MARCH 2025
ABOUT THE EP
Can you relate to the memory of lovingly packed lunch boxes being met with cries of “what’s that smell?”.
An Le, Head of Brand Marketing at BWS and co-founder of Smelly Lunch Stories, shares her smelly lunch story and discusses why we need to increase the number of people from culturally diverse backgrounds in executive management in Australia’s marketing and communications companies.
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0:49
Hi everybody, welcome back to the podcast.
Today we have a very special guest and Lee, Head of Brand Marketing at BWS and Co founder of Smelly
0:57
Lunch Stories and has over 19 experience in the marketing and communications industry working for
some of the most iconic Australian brands including McDonald's, Samsung and Nestle.
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She also recently Co founded Smelly Lunch Stories, which is an initiative that aims to increase the
number of people from culturally diverse backgrounds in positions of executive management in
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Australia's marketing and communications companies.
So welcome to the podcast.
1:20
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
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To start with, do you want to tell us about your cultural background and what you were like as a
child?
1:28
Yeah, so cultural backgrounds.
So I was born in Australia, born in and raised in Sydney.
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My parents migrated from Vietnam probably 3 months before I was born.
So I only just scraped in as a born Australian.
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But yes, I, I grew up in a very, you know, Vietnamese family and I guess in terms of, you know, what
I was like as a child, I'm, I'm looking at you guys and thinking we probably had similar kind of,
2:01
you know, upbringings and therefore personality traits pretty similar.
My parents, you know, they came here to give us a, you know, a better opportunity and they worked
2:14
super, super hard to give us, you know, the right education, the right opportunities.
And I think with that, the flip side is that there's a lot of pressure on, I say me, us as kids to
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study hard, work hard, you know, respect, be obedient, be a good child.
Are you the elder?
2:34
Child or I'm the younger. 10, You're the younger one.
OK.
2:36
Yeah.
Someone of two, Yeah.
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And I would say I thought that was normal.
And I think it's only when you get older and you have friends who are not of, you know, Asian
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backgrounds that you realise how much that plays a part in, like, your upbringing, you know, how you
respond to things.
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Yeah, you know, for me, perfectionism came out as part of that upbringing, which I'm sure we'll
touch on later.
3:00
But yeah, so Vietnamese background and yeah, they kind of the, the, the typical Asian I, I guess
upbringing.
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But I think what I'm really lucky with is my mom was quite, you know, she she's quite a feminist
without being a feminist.
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So she's very much of the mindset of like, work hard, study hard, so you can do the things that you
want.
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You don't need to rely on a partner or a husband or you know what not So I think, yeah, the
perfectionism was there from, you know, wanting to to make my parents proud.
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But I think on the flip side, it was very much you can do anything you want.
Yeah, Yeah, that's great.
3:41
That sounds kind of like my parents, like they were very similar in the sense of like you feel the
pressure, but they're also like, but you can do.
3:47
Whatever you want.
Yeah.
3:48
Yeah.
Well, well.
3:52
Don't be, yeah.
Don't you see that?
3:54
So tell us what like how, how did you get into a career in marketing and how did you get from I
guess childhood to where you are today career wise?
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Well, I think, look, I've spoken to you guys about this before that I, I'm sure my parents would
have loved for me to do a science or maths based, you know, kind of degree or career.
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Pharmacy was the one that my mom wanted, but I always gravitated to like English.
Like at school, English was kind of more my preferred English.
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Business economics at school.
I did chemistry for about four weeks and I still don't understand.
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I still don't understand how you meant to add elements.
Like the most basic thing in chemistry.
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I couldn't do it.
So I was like, I'm out.
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So I think just because of that, I fell into a comms degree because I kind of thought, well, if I'm
doing good in English, then I should do comms.
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Small part of it was Sex and the City.
Samantha was NPR.
4:56
Yes.
Yeah.
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And I didn't know what it was.
I'm like, what's P?
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I look so glamorous and keep trying, yeah.
So then I look, no one should pick their course at 18, but I went PR and comms and that's literally
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how I got into coms.
And then it was only once I started working in PR realised that I really wanted to be in marketing
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more than PR, and I kind of shimmied my way across pretty quickly, yeah.
Cool.
5:21
What were some of the, I guess like we, we in the intro we highlighted you've worked for like
McDonald's, Samsung, they're say big brands and now you're at BWS like how did you get to like the
5:33
BWS role?
I think for quite a few years I used to think it was luck and now I realise that I'm, I'm meant to
5:41
lean into my power and say it was hard work.
I, I started in PRI then I wanted to be the person who was briefing the PR agency, right?
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I think I kind of insist it like with PR, I'm just writing press releases and cold calling
journalists and like begging them to write an article.
6:03
So I ended up moving aside.
I took a sidestep so I went into financial services, BT Financial Group.
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The reason being my clients were all financial services.
Sounds so boring.
6:16
I went on QB Insurance, the Institute of Actuaries of Australia, who else I I had very financial
services clients.
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So then moving into BT Financial Group was a little bit easy.
So I went in as a mark coms coordinator, which is kind of like a content person now.
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Back then they called it something else and it was through a restructure at BT Financial Group.
I got promoted into a brand manager role and I was kind of like, Oh no, no, I'm, I'm a comms person.
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I'm.
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A marketer and my same.
I was like, no, no, you're, you think like a marketer, you can do this.
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Yeah, like you've got this.
Yeah.
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And then from the, I think it was like I said, maybe it's part luck, part hard work.
Yes.
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I then was like, well, if I want to do marketing, I need to go into the best marketing organisation.
So I had a mentor who said to me, go into FMCG.
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That's where you'll learn, you'll learn the foundations of marketing.
You'll learn how to be just accountable to AP and L you'll learn, you know, sales driving,
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marketing.
And so I got a job at Nestle working on chocolate because my cousin's best friend was a marketing
7:31
manager there and he kind of gave me a shot.
Oh, so good.
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And from there it kind of yes, noble.
So it went from Nestle to Samsung.
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He actually that, you know, that leader who hired me at Nestle, then went to Samsung, then hired me
there and then I think I grew up at Samsung.
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I would say I think I spent, you know, I take close to six years there and then when I really wanted
a new change.
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I think once you've got Samsung and Nestle and your CV, you know I'm.
Good you.
8:00
Know kind of help you and that's why I went to McDonald's and then yeah, before you know what I'm at
BWS.
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Wow, and how long have you been at BWS?
For so being at BWS now coming up to four years, so in March it will be 4.
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Years.
Yes.
8:12
Can you paint a picture?
What does a day in your life at BWS look?
8:14
Like OK, a day in the life at BWS.
What I love about the marketing at BWS is it is a lot more anchored around brand like.
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So my role is very much brand.
I don't do NPD like product development or anything like that.
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So it's it's the part of marketing and brands that I love.
So I have a amazing team.
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Our team's structure between doing campaigns like big brand campaigns and our content team.
So social creators or that kind of sits with me and I guess a day in life, you know, lots of
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internal meetings.
Sadly, as a, as a head of I, I, I do spend a lot of time in meetings reporting on what we're doing.
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But the fun part is working with my team to deliver campaigns.
We just launched a big brand campaign.
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So that's been really fun.
But we work with a lot of our agency partners as well.
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So I do get to split my time between internal meetings where you're kind of reporting and, and, you
know, kind of, I guess, yeah, reporting back to leadership, working with my team to kind of help
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them deliver the campaigns and that they're working on and working a lot with agency partners.
And I'm super lucky I get to work with some really great agencies like BMF, Hudson and Co, Cara
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Media Agency.
Yeah.
9:34
Very cool.
I've actually received some of the ads and I'm like, I feel like they've just kind of like shifted
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gears like more recently in the last like year or so.
And I was like, oh, when did BWS get so cool?
9:45
Well.
Guys, now I know the woman behind it of his over here.
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It's been, look, it's been a lot of fun.
I've had a lot of trust placed, you know, on me to, to really change the brand.
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So when I started, BWS just split from Woolworths or Endeavour Group kind of moved across on its own
and it was a really big opportunity to, I don't know, build the personality.
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And, you know, BWS has always been a fun brand, but potentially gets lost as being just the drinks
brand that's attached to Woolworth.
10:18
Yeah.
For sure.
10:19
Way more than that, yeah.
So I've, yeah, I've been able to do some really great things.
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It's it's fun.
Like I really do enjoy my role and we're really lucky.
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We have a lot of flexibility as well.
So I can work from home most of the week.
10:32
I do a day or two in the office day at the agency.
So it is quite, very, it is quite fun what I get to do, yeah.
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So exciting.
What was the journey like actually from so you're starting out from in the industry and then getting
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into a leadership position.
What was that like for you and what challenges did you face?
10:51
I would say the, the journey from being, I guess you know, if I'm using the technical term, an
individual contributor to being a leader.
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It wasn't, it was not easy for me.
I would say it's, it's probably been one of the hardest things that I've had to navigate career
11:09
wise.
I think again, this comes back to upbringing.
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I always just thought if you work really hard, you study hard, you get really great marks.
You you work really hard at your job, you get promoted, but when you get to a leadership role, it is
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completely different.
Your name.
11:24
And I think you then realise, oh, there's all these other, I guess measures of success, There's
perception, there's how you show up in executive presence.
11:35
Yeah, it's all of those things.
It's influencing.
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It's how good are you at balancing people leadership like the, the soft part of being a leader
versus the technical aspects of the work.
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And again, if you think about how I, I mean, you know, I referenced it before how I was brought up.
I just kept going for I'm really good at the technical part.
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The book smart part should be fine, right?
And it, it, it wasn't, it was, it was really hard.
12:05
I, I never really, I think for me, I always wanted everything had to be right.
Everything had to be perfect.
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And again, in leadership, that's not the case.
Like, and, and I can't control it.
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I have to get a result out of my team.
Yeah.
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And so I'd say when I was at Samsung, I, that was where I had my first kind of few direct reports.
And it was a hard, hard lesson.
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And I think it's when you realise that, yeah, what got you to this point is not gonna get you to the
next point.
12:38
Yeah.
And it really, it required a massive shift in thinking about what does success look like.
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And when I say success, it's not doing the job yourself.
Yes.
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Yes, it's not having it perfect.
Sometimes you have to let your team.
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You have to empower them and let them fail and just help.
Them let go of control.
13:00
Yeah, let go of control and you know, the I I still think about it now I think about, you know,
young me as a child and going you need to let go and it's OK to just have fun.
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Yeah, it's OK to, you know, learn from mistakes.
But I think, I don't think Asian parents like you learning from mistakes because you don't want to
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make mistakes you.
Don't even get the opportunity to.
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You don't make mistakes, so.
I think that's probably the IT it, I would say a lot of my leadership journey has been a direct, you
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know, kind of result of my upbringing and really having to shake off a lot of the things that I
learned, not realising that they, you know, they were the things that were going to hold me.
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Back that's interesting because like I kind of go into the industry always thought like, was it
heads down, bums up?
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Yeah, you used to do the work diligently and then hopefully get recognised.
But like as you move on, the advice I constantly get from a manager is like, you need to like speak
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up more.
Like you need to have more like we know you can do a good job.
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But you realise the people at the top are the people who can network, who can speak well, who can
like, you know, draw that attention, attention towards themselves.
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But like for some people, it may be quite uncomfortable, especially if it's not something they're
culturally used to and it's not in their personality.
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Like how did you was that a problem for you and how did you push through that discomfort?
I had a slightly different experience on this and the other Co founders of smelly lunch stories say
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that their upbringing was to be quiet.
Yeah, heads that head down, bum up and don't don't complain, don't shake the you know, don't rock
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the boat.
To me it was slightly different.
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And again, because I said my mum was very, my mum is quite, she's quite open with her opinions and
she's quite outspoken.
14:44
Yeah.
And she used to always say like, don't let anyone like basically silence you.
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Like she, she probably had it slightly differently, which is like speak up like you do whatever you
want.
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So I for me, the big challenge leadership wise was less about knowing when to speak up.
For me, it was knowing when to let go of control.
15:04
So success for me was I have to do it all myself, right?
Yeah.
15:07
I'm the only one who can do this job.
I'm the only one who can deliver that the way that it needs to be done.
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And so having a team for me became an, an exercise in letting go, an exercise in not always needing
to have the last word.
15:24
But I think that came from I used to say I'm, I'm Asian, I'm a female, I'm small.
I have to, I have to make my presence seem in a different way.
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And so my way was through the work and I'm like, I know I'm good at my job.
I know what my strengths are.
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And so for me, the biggest thing was always letting go of it's OK if someone else has a different
point of view and taking a different point of view, it's OK to let your team fail.
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Yeah, there there's.
So I think it comes from a slightly different place.
15:58
It comes from perfectionism and feeling like I'm the other one who can do it.
Yeah.
16:02
To get it right.
Yeah.
16:04
And you know, I, I had leaders who constantly say to me progress over perfection.
Yeah, it's OK, Yeah.
16:11
Or you don't have to kill yourself working long hours.
Yeah.
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Because near enough is good enough.
Or get the result out of your team.
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Like how do you actually, yeah, how do you get a result out of them and influence through them?
So it look, it's been it's been hard.
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Like, arguably I should probably be a lot more senior than I am now, but I've spent more time
actively working on the leadership part, whereas maybe others don't feel the need to do that.
16:40
Yeah, but I've really thought about it and maybe to my own detriment.
And and a lot of that has come through with smelly lunch stories in really going.
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There's how I show up as a leader based on how I was brought up, but then there's also the
perception of me.
16:55
I think that also comes into play as well as and I know we'll talk a bit more about the bias that
exists, but I think it's twofold.
17:02
Yes.
Yeah.
17:03
And because of that, I've spent more time really focusing on being a great leader and not just
wanting to, you know, prime great.
17:10
Kids keep kind of that up, but then they won't be fully sure.
And you know, I, I don't really have impostor syndrome.
17:16
I know a lot of people have about impostor syndrome because I'm the opposite.
I always think unless I can 100% do a role I won't put my hand.
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Up.
OK.
17:25
So you're like over prepared.
Almost, yeah, to the point where I'm, I'm probably can do it.
17:29
I just I'm again that perfection isn't into play, but imposter syndrome is not something for me,
right?
17:37
I guess like with that experience and how like grounded it, it, it is in I guess your cultural
upbringing, did you have any like leaders around you that had like similar experiences that like
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mentored you through it?
I guess like what I'm trying to understand is like, did anyone have like a very similar experience
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to you in terms of like people in the industry?
I will be really honest with you now, I and I didn't realise, I think again, it took me a long time
18:06
to figure out that my experience is different to others.
Or, you know, if I'm getting feedback from a leader and they're not understanding why I, why that,
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that bit, why there is that blocker for me, you know, as a leader, why they're, they're not
understanding why I can't just let go or they don't understand why I feel certain triggers, you
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know, they're, they're, and, and I didn't realise that, yes, everyone's different.
But I think having the perspective of Asian background, kind of, you know, leaders as well as just
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ethnic minorities.
What happened was, I think as I progressed, I then became friends with other people who were a bit
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more like me.
So when I was at McDonald's, I worked with someone who's at Lebanese background.
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And then you kind of go, Oh my God, there's so many similarities around the way we are with our
parents, the way that we approach work ethic, all of those sorts of things.
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And you kind of go, wow, the power of relating to somebody else, how you, you realise how much you
need that.
19:09
But again, I didn't think too much of it.
It was probably later on.
19:14
I I'd say only the last couple of years that I've realised that having leaders that have the same
experience would be really helpful because then, yeah, you can actually pick their brain on it.
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And I've told the story before, but you know, I, I met somebody who like, I met a leader who is an
Asian, you know, background female.
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And I was blown away.
I was absolutely blown away.
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And that's when I realised that we needed to do something to, I guess how do we offer that back to
other people?
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And, you know, I don't have all the answers, but at least you can kind of work on it together, I
guess.
19:54
But you can really start to, I don't know, tackle something.
So mentoring, you know?
20:00
You may not have the answer, but at least there's two of you who are having similar experience,
albeit at different stages of your.
20:06
Career.
Yeah.
20:07
But yeah, I didn't have that.
Yeah, even having somebody like who's kind of has the same experience as you in a senior leadership,
20:13
but having that safe space to ask the stupid question, the stupid questions and like questions that
you may not that that you know, that they can relate to as well, even that is enough to feel
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empowered to do something about it.
I feel like cultural diversity is very important to the mission of spreading my stories.
20:29
Like, have you seen progression since your time in the industry?
Like what do you feel at the state of cultural diversity is at the moment?
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I think definitely, I've seen so much change and and this isn't it.
It's only upon reflection and kind of really thinking about how is it different?
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There was an element of me, I would say I tried to downplay my, my background downplay, you know, I
grew up in Western Sydney and I, I will never forget when, you know, one of my first jobs, I didn't
21:04
really talk about that a lot because it was no one else is from the West and everyone talked about
the West like it was.
21:11
You know this.
Crazy idea.
21:14
And I would say even now there's more people like in my team, there are a few people who grow up out
worse too, of, you know, ethnic kind of backgrounds.
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And I would say I was probably one of the few back then.
So how in terms of progress, I think there's a lot more diversity in the people coming into the
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industry.
There's a lot more acknowledgement of, you know, the, the need to have diverse teams and, and what
21:43
that brings.
I, I would say that's a massive change to where it was when I first started.
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And the, the one great thing is there's a lot of understanding around equality and inclusion.
Equality and inclusion is probably the thing that's moved the most, But I, I have a different view
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on.
So my, my take on that is equality's great.
22:07
Yep, Yep.
We're all equal.
22:09
I would love to take it to the next level of we're all different and diverse and what does that
bring?
22:14
Yes, yeah, I, I think maybe.
And it's baby steps, you know?
22:19
So equality, great.
You think we're all the same, but I would love to see us celebrate what makes us different.
22:25
Yeah.
Which we're not there yet.
22:26
Yeah.
And I actually, like, I have seen the narrative more now progress into more, like, nuanced versions
22:32
of diversity and what being different means.
Like before, Like Dee and I used to be just a blanket statement.
22:38
Yeah.
But even seeing like you guys talk more specifically about ethnic minorities and cultural diversity,
22:43
like I think it's really promising to see more people speak more in a nuanced way about diversity
and inclusion.
22:49
There's also a lot that's been done like with LGBTQIA plus Pride, I think has done wonders for and I
and I don't want to, you know, it's not me saying that that wasn't warranted.
23:03
Like I mean, that's so needed, but you start to realise that there are so many different minorities
that need to be, I guess, celebrated or acknowledged.
23:12
So I think that's one area.
There's male and female, like, you know, gender, gender.
23:17
Diversity.
There's so many areas, but even in the gender space, we're still like, I would say so much progress
23:25
has happened, yet we're still so far away when you think about gender pay gap.
So there's a part of me that goes, God, are we ever going to be able to shift this?
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It is overwhelming.
But without, without talking about it, nothing changes.
23:40
And like I said, pride, you know, the way people think about pride has changed.
The way people think about female leadership has changed.
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And that can only come from people starting the conversation.
It might take a while, but I think.
23:52
We just have to keep.
Keep going.
23:54
And I think ethnic diversity is just one that's a little bit slower off, you know, the, the mark.
Hopefully it starts to well, I, I think the recognition is there now that there is something that
24:06
needs to be at least recognised and then hopefully it's addressed soon.
Yeah.
24:11
But it all it is overwhelming if you really think about it.
Yeah, it starts to get a bit crazy, especially working in an area like marketing communications
24:22
where there are less ethnic diversity kind of backgrounds people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:30
I mean, that's a very big part of like the initiatives that you and Joe Co founders started for
smelly lunch stories.
24:40
Can you tell us about how that came about?
What's your mission and what do you hope to change through this?
24:46
So smelly lunch stories really came about from I guess that experience I was sharing before when I,
I met a leader that was, you know, of Asian background and, and just really blew me away the impact
25:02
she had on me.
And it was just such a small interaction.
25:06
There was that and then there were a few different discussions that me and the other Co founders
had.
25:12
We're friends.
We all kind of worked with each other at some point or another in our careers.
25:16
And just through just different discussions and conversations that we had, we realised it was really
this really big need.
25:24
I was going to say opportunity, but it's more than an opportunity.
I think it's a need to, I, I guess on our, our backgrounds and really start to lean into this truth
25:38
that our experiences, you know, progressing in the industry looks very different to everybody
else's.
25:44
And I think the the big thing for us we're talking about is there's not a lot of people like us like
we are, you know, really luckily and you know, we have the privilege of being in amazing leadership
25:58
roles in really amazing companies and brands.
But there is an uncomfortable truth there that the more senior you get, there are less people that
26:06
look like you.
And so the question you guys asked me before around, you know, did you have mentors or leaders that
26:14
had the same experience as you?
I didn't.
26:16
So that's really where it came from.
This Is Us just kind of talking about our experience and realising there was a need to address the
26:25
lack of diversity in leadership in the marketing, communications and media industry.
So I guess we, I don't know, we got together and we thought, let's do something about it.
26:36
We had.
More friends already beforehand.
26:37
Yeah, we don't work together.
At one point or another, I have been a client of, like Graham and Michelle are the clients of
26:46
theirs.
Michelle I'm actually friends with.
26:48
And then we started working together.
Linda's a friend of Michelle's.
26:51
We've all kind of been in each other's orbit at some point, which is really lovely.
And that's kind of what brought us together to do this.
26:58
It was us saying let's, let's do it.
But we have a passion for this.
27:01
We want to see change.
And I think again, once you get to a certain level in your career, you kind of go, how do we give
27:08
back?
Yeah.
27:09
What's the thing that we can do that will better the industry?
I I like, I'm such a advocate for this industry.
27:19
I love it.
Yeah.
27:20
A lot of people kind of laugh at me that I love.
I go to all the industry events.
27:25
I have so many friends.
Yeah.
27:27
In this world.
Yeah.
27:29
And for me, I I'm not there to network.
I do it because I love it.
27:34
Yeah.
So for me, I love this industry.
27:36
How do I make it better?
How do I help make it better for those who are kind of, you know, starting out as well?
27:42
So, so our big mission for Smelly Lunch stories is to ultimately increase the amount of the number
of senior leaders in marketing, advertising, media from that come from ethnic minority backgrounds.
27:57
The stat is 29% of people who start out in the industry are from ethnic minority backgrounds and
then only 12% make it to a senior leadership role.
28:09
And for me, that's quite, it's unsurprising, but for that reason, it's something that we need to do
to to address it.
28:18
Yeah.
And then I guess like what is the medium or what is the mode that you guys want to do that by?
28:24
It's a lot about storytelling, Like what's.
Yeah.
28:26
How did you learn on that So.
We started with the problem that we wanted to solve 1st and really you kind of go, well, how do you,
28:35
how do you break down that barrier or, or how do you break down that, that the awareness that there
is a difference of experience.
28:44
And for us it came down to storytelling and storytelling, there's two parts to it.
One, it's, it's how you learn about other people.
28:52
It's how you get empathy, it's how you connect.
But our industry is all about storytelling as well.
28:58
So you kind of go it, it just writes itself in some ways, but it's really how you connect with other
people and how you really start to, I guess learn.
29:09
I think learn and connect with others is the big one.
And Smelly Lunch Stories is just in terms of the the name, the concept, where it came from.
29:18
We talked about the fact that, you know, everyone who identifies with this challenge in the industry
probably had the similar experience going up where, you know, you had the smelly lunch, whether
29:33
that's at school or in the office.
Yeah, I had both, yeah.
29:36
Yeah.
The good old, you know, heating up a, a lunch in the office and you start to freak out about the
29:42
smell and you kind of go, I didn't think of it until I actually put it in the microwave and decided
to go.
29:49
So that's where it came from.
So what if it was smelly lunch stories?
29:53
Because really that's what unites us.
But you know how amazing that food of unique cultures and backgrounds is?
30:01
So, so embraced and celebrated and like, it's the thing that divided us when we were younger, but
food is also the thing that brings us together.
30:10
And it's such a accessible talking point as well to bring people together.
Like, I think it's really nice.
30:15
It's a really nice notion to start to get people to talk about more important things.
Yeah.
30:19
Like, even like at in the office the other day, I was talking to one of our finance directors, and
she was, oh, how was the spending lunch stories event, the launch event that you went to?
30:27
And she said, oh, you know, I had a smelly lunch, a smelly lunch story too.
And she's Italian.
30:30
And she was talking about even like, bringing lasagna in when she was a kid.
Yeah.
30:35
And I was like, it's so nice how that enables people to start talking about diversity and inclusion
through just like a simple thing like lunch.
30:44
It's we, we say, like it's a metaphor for the experiences that we all had growing up.
But everyone has a smelly lunch story.
30:51
You don't have to be from an ethnic minority background to to have that.
Exactly.
30:57
And I think it becomes, to your point, a really accessible and warm way of, I guess, shedding light
on something that you've never really thought about before.
31:07
I would say the other thing is before smelly lunch stories, when you think about, you know, raising
awareness of, you know, the need for inclusivity around this, I think everyone starts to get quite
31:18
uncomfortable because they're worried does that is that, you know, and I hate to use the word
because I I really try to not use it.
31:25
Is it a racist thing?
Yeah.
31:27
And I think the big thing I stress is this isn't about racism.
This is actually far from it.
31:32
It's just it's a bias that we all have.
And a bias is quite different.
31:37
It's connected to it, but it's not sorry.
It's not about racism in that sense.
31:41
This is about us saying how do you celebrate this is the positive side and and so smelly lunch
stories really was born from this idea that how do we celebrate everyone's background?
31:53
How do we raise awareness that there is a different experience that, yeah, you know, we have in this
industry, but then how do we actually create the space for leaders, for people who are starting out
32:08
or people who have been in the industry for a while, whether they are from these backgrounds or not,
to just share the stories and actually start to recognise that there is a different experience.
32:18
Yeah.
And and really for us, it's not changing that bias.
32:21
Yes.
So that when you think about, when you think about the next leader that should be in a certain role,
32:27
you don't have the same picture that potentially everybody else does.
Yes.
32:31
Or you might not think like, oh, that's not for me because I've never seen anyone who looks like me
in that role.
32:35
I look, I still do it.
Yeah.
32:37
I was, you know, I, I literally talk to people all the time about, you know, what's next for me.
And I say that, you know, openly this happens, you know, you talk about development plans, you talk
32:48
about what's your next role.
And I kind of, Oh no, no, I'm, I'm just going to stay here, but I'll just be, you know, the brand
32:56
expert because like, I don't think that I'll, I don't think I'll be like a head of marketing or a
general manager of marketing.
33:04
I just don't see anyone putting me in that role.
And I literally said it the other day.
33:08
And how much of that is because I think the perception I have when I close my eyes, would they
really put me there?
33:17
Because I I I say it, it, it's a combination of my background, but also, I'm small.
I look young.
33:26
Yeah.
I think that all of these things play a part.
33:29
But having these conversations and what Smelly Lunch Stories is aiming to do is if I can't even
change my own perception of what a leader looks like and I am from that background, imagine what we
33:41
could do if we can then change the perceptions of those who even aren't, you know, coming from a
cultural background.
33:46
So it's baby steps, but it's just creating the space.
Just just talk about it.
33:52
Yeah, on that.
What is your smelly lunch story?
33:55
My smelly lunch story so I'm going to share two.
OK so when I was I'll I'll never forget it.
34:00
When I was in kindy my mum used to pack me.
So think 2 pieces of white bread butter and then pork floss your bum.
34:11
Yeah.
In a bread in a sandwich cut up.
34:14
And it's like when you're in kindy, you won, I think.
And I say I have a 7 year old and I see how they react about what looks good and what doesn't.
34:25
And they're thinking about what their friends think.
Yeah, I never, I'll never forget how much I thought, oh, my God, this is going to make me look
34:32
different.
And like, your mom does not look good.
34:36
Yes, in a sandwich it's pretty much is brown.
Brown Fuzz Fuzz Fuzz is.
34:42
The best way to describe it, I mean it it tastes like.
Tastes so good, yeah.
34:48
But you know, you know, like other kids, seeing that is not cute.
Yeah, Yeah.
34:52
And I remember my mum packed a few of them for me and I actually asked her to stop doing it.
And I felt so bad.
34:58
Yeah.
She's so I I've talked to her about it recently.
35:02
She laughed about it.
Because I love your mom on Bunmi.
35:06
Is my absolute favourite today, yes, yeah.
I like, I'll go to my mom's house and she'll go, oh, do you want, you know, do you want to Bunmi and
35:14
she'll like put it in the oven and then put some pop floss in there.
For me.
35:18
It's my favourite now, but I remember just as a kid, I just was so embarrassed and I'm the shame I
got about it.
35:25
So then when I started working there was so my mum has packed me lunch.
She still packs me lunch now.
35:34
My mum packed me lunch.
This is when I was living at home and working in the city and she packed me some rice with her car.
35:44
Yes.
Oh, yes, I've seen a braised pork.
35:46
Braised pork, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
35:48
But.
I guess it could be a bit powerful smell wise.
35:53
It's not bad.
I don't think it's bad, but I think it's just, it's quite strong.
35:58
Yeah.
And I'll never forget it.
36:01
I finished heating it up and someone in my team literally like a girl, like a Peach.
Like what's that smell?
36:08
His food is that I don't think she realised it was.
Mine.
36:13
Because we were in.
Like, yeah, they thought it was.
36:15
Somebody and I remember thinking, Oh good Lord, it's me because I heated it up and walked back to my
desk and I end up sitting in the kitchen eating it on my own, not sitting at my desk and eating it.
36:25
So after that I actually remember thinking, Oh, that was a bit that was a bit harsh, but I get it.
Yes.
36:32
So anyway, that's my my long winded answer.
But you know, it's it kept following me.
36:38
But still to this day I don't bring food in.
That could be you.
36:42
Know oh, you should.
That should be your next challenge.
36:44
Oh.
It's it's it's hard.
36:45
It's like, you know, when someone who does popcorn at work?
Yeah, yeah.
36:48
And the whole building smells like popcorn.
Yeah.
36:51
I was like I can't be that guy because I technically would get annoyed at the popcorn guy as.
Well, yeah, OK, I guess you.
36:57
Know what I mean?
Yeah, I don't want to be that guy.
36:59
Maybe one day.
One day.
37:00
One day, yeah.
One day because.
37:02
When I was like a junior in the industry and like I would bring like my Asian food, like meats and
whatever with this, with rice, right?
37:09
I'll be like eating it, like trying to quickly finish it.
So no good.
37:13
See what I was eating?
Yeah.
37:14
You know, people do that.
Oh, what's that?
37:15
What have you got?
Well, that's yeah.
37:16
Yeah.
Like what's?
37:18
For lunch today.
Yeah, the attention.
37:20
Yeah.
Like, what is that, right?
37:22
But now these days I bring it and then I open and eat it, and they're like, what's that?
And I thought, Oh, well, this is what you know, And I use it as an educational.
37:28
It's good like we need to step into it, but this is I'm talking.
Yeah, exactly.
37:32
Yeah.
It changed for me when I went to Samsung because Samsung has such a diverse right?
37:38
There are lots of Korean expats, Yes.
Eating amazing cuisine.
37:43
You know, their their lunch lunches were their packed lunches were amazing.
So that's probably where it changed for me.
37:51
Yeah.
Where I just went.
37:52
Oh, I don't have to hide.
Yeah, but you feel.
37:54
Empowered.
Yeah, yeah.
37:56
And it was just everyone was excited to see what everyone had for lunch.
Yeah.
38:00
But yeah, look, I haven't brought a packed lunch to work for a long time.
Days of working from home make that really easy.
38:06
Yeah, that's true.
Can eat whatever I want.
38:08
Don't.
Worry about the presentation?
38:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How have you learnt to embrace your identity and unique point of view?
38:16
Were there any like internal barriers that you had to overcome?
I mean, food aside.
38:20
Food aside, it's come with age and I know that that's probably not the the golden bullets that you
know that the silver bullet.
38:33
Everyone's looking for the golden answer.
But if I could shed like, you know of anyone who's listening to this, I think hopefully you can hear
38:42
that things have changed enough that we should all start embracing, you know, what makes us unique
and what makes us different.
38:49
When I was progressing, I think what I ended up doing was really leaning into the work because I
thought if the work should speak for itself, if I'm really great at my job, no one can fault me.
39:02
So that's kind of how I did it.
My superpower became my technical expertise or not my technical capability, but everyone listening.
39:12
I think leaning to the technical side of what you can bring to the table as well as the you that got
high for the role that you're in.
39:21
You know, the I always used to laugh about it's a recent phenomenon, this whole personality hire
thing.
39:29
I mean, I would have actually no one talked about personality hire.
And I actually said to someone the other day, am I the personality hire?
39:37
I think I am, but I never realised it because I do like a chat and I do like a laugh, but lean into
the thing that makes you potentially the personality higher.
39:47
You know, everyone's got the quirks and the I'll never forget my sister used to always say to me, do
not open your can of crazy.
39:56
Whenever I start a new job, she's like, how how much how much have you opened the can?
I'm like, no, I haven't at all.
40:02
Like I'm I'm good, super normal, but I think it's these things like the lunches.
But how much do you share about who you are and.
40:11
I joke about it now, but lean into both, develop both.
Yeah, be proud of both.
40:17
Be proud of what makes you an amazing.
In my case, mark it up.
40:20
Yes, but then lean into the thing that makes that that, you know, your point of view.
That's different.
40:26
Yes.
Yeah.
40:26
Like instead of saying, oh, God, you know, word to yourself, you know, I'm from the West and I don't
want to speak up, say, oh, I'm from the West and I can actually talk to the need to be more, you
40:40
know, thinking about our, you know, our campaign, how that will work for Barrel from Blacktown.
Yeah.
40:46
Like, think, lean into why that is a perspective that would be really valued in your workplace.
Yeah.
40:53
Whereas I think, yeah, when I was growing up, when I was, you know, kind of coming up through the
ranks, no one did that.
41:01
You know, how do we get better at it?
So to come back to your question, I think for me it's changed and it's only changed in recent years.
0:00
But that's why I want to share the message a bit more, to just lean into it and not worry about what
41:15
people say or think.
I guess you have a team under you, right?
41:18
Like how do you build an environment that supports that?
It's hard, yeah.
41:23
I, I, I will openly say it's hard because we're all busy.
Our jobs are busy just delivering what you need to deliver.
41:31
Is, is busy.
It is about creating the space for it.
41:35
So I would say it's probably a couple of things.
I I think it's about when you're recruiting, it's, it's thinking outside of in, in the industry that
41:47
we're in.
It's, there's a bubble, you know, we call it the advertising bubble.
41:52
Yeah, the eastern suburbs.
Not everyone's from Bondi, we always used to say, but it's being more open than that and thinking
42:00
about who, where you're recruiting from.
It is about share up For me.
42:06
I share a lot about my background, my circumstance.
I say circumstance, my family situation, that I have a Co parent, you know, 7 year old.
42:16
So I openly share to my team that at these certain times I'm not online.
Yeah, but it creates a space for them to go for the parents in my team.
42:26
Like family is valued.
Yeah, yeah.
42:29
In doing smelly lunch stories, it has created the space for those who are from cultural backgrounds
to not feel bad for being who they are.
42:40
I have a girl on my team, one of the marketing managers on my team, she's French background and
we're doing a big presentation to a whole business.
42:50
It's like 10,000 people across BWS.
And she said to me, I don't think it should be me, then no one's going to understand my accent.
42:58
And I said you ABS for that reason, you absolutely will do it because I think it's so important for
everyone to say that there is diversity in our teams and it isn't just like I laughed and like, I
43:09
still understand you, Charles and.
To prove the point to her that people can understand.
43:14
Yeah, I.
Thought you like we can understand you it's cool that you should do.
43:17
It's your baby that you need to present it.
Yeah yeah.
43:20
So I think for me, it's it's it's creating the space and empowering the team.
Yeah.
43:26
To yeah, see that if I'm doing it, they can too.
Yeah.
43:31
But it's, it's, it's still early days.
Like I'm still not great at it.
43:35
My direct manager asked me the other day, what are you gonna do to bring smelly lunch stories into
BWS and Endeavour group?
43:43
And I was like, yeah.
Great question.
43:45
Question.
I haven't thought that far.
43:48
Like Mama, I'm chasing my own tail.
I'm still trying to figure out like we're still, we're still, you know, kind of working on it.
43:54
But it just goes to show that.
There's appetite for.
43:57
This appetite and it's just it's just hard yes, I think, you know, I get asked all the time, like
how do I create space?
44:04
And it's like you just have to you just have to be open to it.
But in terms of tactics to do or actions, I think we're still baby steps on that journey and we're
44:15
going to hopefully through smiley lunch stories help a lot more and work with our community and we
kind of started to foster to kind of help with it.
44:23
I didn't have the answers, yes, but it's about creating the conversation to go on otherwise.
Also love to see like how allies can come in and help us as well.
44:31
Sometimes like the onus is on us to create the chain of how are you going to bring you smelly lunch
stories?
44:37
But how are you guys going to smelly bring, you know, bring it into the like the company?
Like, and look, this is the thing I think my the vision for smelly lunch stories initially is about
44:47
raising awareness of, you know, the, the, this gap in cultural leadership, but ultimately becomes a
celebration of everyone and what everyone brings to the table.
44:59
And you know, we had our first launch event recently, you know, you were there and you know, we got
asked like what what does success look like in a year's time?
45:11
And you know, one of the the Co founders said in a year's time, we would love to see more people
here, but then specifically more people who aren't of ethnic minorities who are wanting to
45:22
understand how they can then help their teams and support their teams.
So the allies are such a big part of it.
45:27
But yeah, I said for me, I would love to evolve it from being ethnic minorities too.
So celebrating what makes everyone unique and what that means for the work because we're not all the
45:38
same.
It's just it's an exercise in empathy really, that we all come from different backgrounds and we all
45:43
bring different things to the workplace.
Yeah, that's so beautiful.
45:47
I like to share a story of my own.
I think the thing that you said about like obviously leading by example is so important.
45:54
Just even in my workplace, I'm like one of three Asians and one of my like fellow colleagues from
like a Chinese background.
46:02
She was just like, how are you so confident in bringing like your whole self to work?
And like, why are you so open to sharing?
46:08
Say, for example, like that I grew up in Western Sydney and also my parents are from like a non
English speaking background.
46:15
Like why are you so proud of sharing?
And I think this podcast is the very reason like why I do that.
46:20
But it's just become like natural for me to share.
And if like you don't share your stories or even just lead by example, other people will kind of
46:29
like feel the need to hide as well.
So just the power and just sharing and other people feeling seen through your experiences.
46:35
Amazing.
And I imagine that's what smelly lunch toys is going to be.
46:38
Hunch that I love that story though, because I didn't do those things initially right.
And it's so great to see and I think to your point, because you have you guys have this platform,
46:49
you're actively thinking about how you can help your listeners and help people around you.
It's muscle memory, right.
46:57
So the more you think about it and the more you talk about it, the more it just becomes second
nature to just embrace, you know, embrace who you are, embrace where you come from and actually see
47:07
it as a superpower.
So you know the fact that you're one of three, you know, how do we change that to go Oh my God, I'm
47:13
one of three.
How great.
47:15
Yeah, yeah.
The the the the privilege for me to then be able to help.
47:19
I hate the word educate.
What's the word, you know, kind of shed light on something and show people my background.
47:26
How amazing.
Like that's a privilege.
47:28
Yeah, seeing it as a privilege.
Which I didn't initially, yeah.
47:31
And I definitely wouldn't say that I was ashamed.
Definitely not.
47:37
I think I just, I probably didn't talk about my culture as much as I should have.
I didn't talk about going up in the western suburbs as much as I should have.
47:50
But how do we get people feeling more comfortable to do that?
It's nothing to be ashamed about.
47:54
It's like a muscle that you have to keep working.
It's quite vulnerable sharing that part of yourself sometimes.
47:59
I remember when we first started the podcast we were like, oh, work doesn't know about the podcast
just.
48:05
In case we say something like.
I don't know, I don't know, but truly like they didn't we would work like they didn't know that we
48:12
even had this whole platform out there.
But when we started talking more about what we do at work, like more people came out and was like
48:18
supporting us and we always get messages on like workmates, like listen to your episode, loved it
and things like that.
48:23
But it was really scary at the beginning because like I feel so exposed, like how, you know, what
would they think about us?
48:29
But the.
Exact same experience.
48:31
Yeah, for me, I know the the other Co founders have had a slightly different experience.
I was quite nervous about sharing it.
48:39
I, I, I go into avoidance on things that are a bit hard.
So I just avoided and I didn't tell anyone just like the last minute.
48:47
And I had people say to me how come you never told us what you're doing?
And it was because it is quite a scary thing to, I guess, Yeah, you get taught to like, keep your
49:00
home.
Yeah, exactly.
49:01
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think we're just in a different era where there is no home person and work person
49:08
anymore.
It is all one and the same.
49:10
Exactly.
The funny thing is I always used to say I only have one wardrobe.
49:14
You know, people say I've got a work wardrobe and yes, I've never had a work wardrobe.
Yes, I just have one wardrobe my day.
49:23
When I first started out, everyone had work clothes.
Yes, and your heels and your pencil.
49:28
The.
Blazers.
49:31
Ohh my.
God, I feel so attacked.
49:35
I'm not kidding.
Kidding, kidding, kidding.
49:37
But I mean, I but I didn't do it.
I purposely went, no, I don't have that.
49:40
Yes, lovely.
I'm not doing it.
49:41
But I think it came from a place of me wanting to show my personality, but I stopped at wardrobe.
Yeah, like how did how do you do that in all aspects of your life?
49:52
Because like I said, personality as well as your technical skill should be one in the same.
It should be this is who she is on the weekend.
50:02
Yeah.
So yeah, to.
50:03
Bring your authentic self.
Yeah, where you go to?
50:05
I I think the more of us that do it, yeah.
And the more of us that shoot for opportunities when we think that there's no Asian leaders, there's
50:14
no, you know, ethnic, you know, ethnic minority leaders in this business, or maybe they're not
gonna, you know, they're not gonna go for me or they're not gonna give the role to me.
50:25
Just shoot for it.
Anyway, I'm saying it because, and this is, I need to take my own advice, but hopefully we all talk
50:32
about it more than there's more of us going for those roles.
Guess what?
50:36
There's more of us in those roles, and that just helps, you know, this whole representation piece,
yeah.
50:42
Yeah.
So you mentioned it briefly, but the launch event for Smelly Lunch Stories happened in October.
50:46
Like how did that go for you and any learnings or insights you got from the experience?
Look, smelly lunch stories then.
50:53
So that was always gonna be the big launch yeah, right.
So we we launched with some PR before that just to go.
50:59
This is the concept and this is the problem that we're trying to solve.
But the event very much was the the main attraction.
51:07
So we had, you know, just over 100 people attend, People bought tickets.
And it was probably one of the most amazing experiences in my whole career.
51:18
Wow.
It was such a great conversation.
51:23
I think the energy and the warmth in the room was just ridiculous.
And there was such a great mix of people in the audience, people that either we've worked with,
51:34
people who just read about it on LinkedIn and wanted to attend, people who are starting out, people
who are a bit more experienced, those who are from cultural backgrounds, those who are leaders and
51:45
allies.
It was phenomenal, the response after I, I, I couldn't, couldn't have expected.
51:53
I I just didn't expect it.
Couldn't have asked for anything better than that.
51:57
Yeah, I think what's been really amazing is maybe I, I didn't expect the reception that it had,
right?
52:07
People being so engaged, people saying how much it was needed, people leaning in and saying how can
I help?
52:14
How can I can I do something for the next one?
Like people said, the fact that people were saying for the next one, we kept saying who knows if
52:22
anyone.
You know, when's the next one?
52:24
Like, who knows?
What if no one wants?
52:25
Like, what if these feels like these bombs?
And yeah, so we didn't even know if we were going to do another one.
52:30
The aim is to do more.
Yeah, But the fact that people are leaning in, there's such momentum now.
52:36
We need to keep it up.
We would love to get to A to a point where we have a community that kind of helps create keep it
52:46
going for us.
Like and and I say that in the sense of, you know, this can't be a just us thing.
52:51
It becomes something that it's a community driven piece that everyone leans into and everyone wants
it.
52:57
So I think for me, I was blown away by the storytelling, by some of the anecdotes and the and the
comments and the feedback that we had after.
53:07
And I guess the big thing from here is how do we keep it?
Going yes yeah yeah and I I was in the in the room as well and you would really feel like the energy
53:15
yeah it's so fun as well I'm.
Just I'm blown away, yeah.
53:19
Is it because I don't wanna ask you guys?
Is it because you're hearing people share stories that you realise that you're not alone?
53:27
Yes.
And it was such a relatability like there was some things that.
53:31
Rose said there was.
Things like Chris said that I was like, oh, my God, that's amazing.
53:35
Yeah, yeah.
Some of the questions and the comments in the audience and everyone had a slightly different view on
53:41
it as well.
So what I loved is I had a different view of my smelly lunch story.
53:46
But you know, Chris, who was one of the other panellists, he was sharing that, you know, other kids
actually wanted his lunch, you know, his Curry sandwiches.
53:55
And I think just there was there was something to relate to from.
Yeah, like everyone was so captivated by by the panel and the conversation.
54:02
And I think for me personally, what was even more amazing was that to have a panel of senior leaders
like some people at the very top, like rows at the very top of the top talking about stories that
54:14
you're like, oh, I experienced that on a daily.
Like the fact that you can see those stories in the top leadership like that space.
54:22
I think that makes it feel very more like more attainable and it feels very humbling that you're
part of the same.
54:27
Community.
And it's we, we just, we don't talk about these things like we, I think again, you go, I go to work.
0:00
I have to bring my work self.
54:36
Yeah, I can't talk about the experiences that I've had.
But I think maybe that's what it was.
54:41
It was just a space, a safe space, A warm space.
But people are just sharing some of the things that you thought made you different.
54:48
But then you realise I'm not that different if this whole room is feeling the same way.
So my highlight was when I referenced my smelly lunch story, the pop floss sandwich and the chi the
55:02
raw.
There wasn't knotty.
55:03
There was a like people like people wooed me.
You got excited and like how sane people felt because everyone was like, Oh my God, we never talk
55:13
about that ingredient.
Yes, for example.
55:17
But I think for me, where we want to get to is we keep doing events.
We'd likely do different topics and and delve into different things, but what will stay the same is
55:29
the the optimism, the positivity, the storytelling.
Amazing food, yes.
55:34
And what?
The food was amazing, Yeah.
55:37
And it was that key of social.
It was so great.
55:39
Yeah.
And hopefully it expect it expands to being networking events.
55:45
It doesn't have to be panels.
People didn't want to leave.
55:47
I know people didn't want to.
We all wanted to keep talking.
55:50
And now I'm talking the amount of new friends connections that I made on that day.
I think again, you just want to be around like minded people and it just felt so supportive.
56:03
Yes, yeah.
So hopefully networking events and ultimately from there, mentoring, would love to kind of have
56:10
mentoring like a programme again that kind of comes together through the community.
Yeah, yeah.
56:17
So there's a lot that we want to do.
The ambition is high, but it's all about just making sure that we keep the community going, the
56:25
awareness going and to your point, before bringing in more allies.
Yeah.
56:29
Yeah, Yeah.
No, that's so amazing.
56:31
Yeah.
Can't wait to see what's.
56:32
Installed for like next year and beyond.
Watch this space.
56:37
Watch this.
Yeah, it's quite funny trying to get a whole bunch of three strategists and a client together.
56:44
It's very impressive.
To do this, we diary management is not our strong suit.
56:50
You need a manager.
How we do take you guys to like come up with the idea and plan and then launch?
56:55
About a year and a half, maybe almost.
Two years.
56:57
Oh yeah.
Yeah, it took us a while, yeah.
56:59
But at one point we thought it wasn't gonna happen, right, Because this is how we're gonna do this.
Like we all have big jobs, Yes.
57:08
And Urban List coming on board really helps that.
So I think for us, I think the big learning is ask for help, Yes.
57:15
And there is enough appetite here to, you know, get people together and have people contribute.
So, you know, I'd love to get to a point where it's people from adjacent industries as well.
57:26
So I also had lots of people from my work who aren't directly marketing.
So can I come anyway?
57:32
Yeah, absolutely.
So there's there's a lot of ambition, not a lot of time we we are getting.
57:39
This I'm excited for the expansion of like to other industries because obviously I'm from a the
design industry and we don't have anything like this, but we have very, very similar I think
57:48
experiences.
I I think yeah, we we need to just do it yeah, make it happen.
57:53
And yeah so interestingly, I had people who I work with who are in CX roles yeah they're the ones
who reached out to me saying I saw this on your LinkedIn.
58:03
Can I come to the next one a month Yeah, I'm not exactly in marketing them.
Oh, no, like absolutely come yeah, we have people from E com teams and you know, put adjacent, yes,
58:13
marketing adjacent alcohol it, but yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, the stories are relatable no matter who what you.
58:19
Are I think the big thing is it's about being in an industry where the, you know, ethnic minority
backgrounds are the minority.
58:28
Yeah.
And that's where where we want to create change.
58:31
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So do you have any advice for those ethnic minorities who do really want to go into like senior
58:38
leadership?
Like what piece of advice would you give?
58:40
The advice that I would give, I kind of touched on it before, which was kind of, and it's easier
said than done, which is lean into what makes you unique and lean into it as a superpower.
58:54
So that's number one.
And I think it comes from talking, it comes from listening to podcasts like this.
59:00
It comes from leaning into what makes you different and talking about it in your workplace and
really seeing it as a positive and power.
59:10
And the other one is networking.
I can't say no.
59:13
And I hate the word networking because I think it has a weird connotation like a self serving
manipulative connotation.
59:19
But what I mean by that is connect with others that relate to you or that you relate to you because
the power of that like in this room connecting.
59:28
It's it's about like creating that network for yourself because again, the more people that you have
in your circle that you feel like they get me, the more you realise that you're not that different
59:40
and that that's just positivity.
That's just great energy.
59:44
Yes.
That's just you then feeling like you've got the confidence to go out and get, you know, kind of go
59:49
for the role that you didn't think you might be able to get.
Because if in your corner is someone who is in that leadership role that looks like you, Yeah, it
59:57
might just make you feel that little bit more confident to go for it.
Yeah, Yeah, So, yeah, leaning to what makes you different.
1:00:04
And like I said, easier said than done.
But.
1:00:07
Bring that potful sandwich to work.
Yeah.
1:00:10
And the other one is networking, connecting with others that are like you and just keeping those
connections close.
1:00:17
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
1:00:19
And I really, really like the idea of like celebrating the differences, like really putting a
positive spin to it because sometimes you can get caught into like the serious stuff and the more
1:00:28
negative side of DNA and things like that.
But I love like the idea that celebration is really easy to do.
1:00:35
So easy and everyone wants to celebrate like a win, a positive, a you know, someone that they love,
you know.
1:00:43
So I think the minute you take it out of the space of negative serious, there's an issue that we
need to find what's the barrier and what's the, you know, inside to celebrate it.
1:00:54
It's almost like the antithesis of the problem we're trying to solve is to celebrate the people,
yeah.
1:01:00
Yeah, amazing.
Well, that wraps up like the, I guess the interview portion of our episode.
1:01:05
Every episode we have dinner table questions, which are like 3 quick five questions.
No, you can't.
1:01:10
No, they're.
Easy.
1:01:12
They're really easy, yeah.
So the first question is, what is your favourite dish from your culture?
1:01:18
Oh, favourite dish, I'm gonna say fur.
But I do feel like that is very expected of me.
1:01:25
But it is the truth.
First, good.
1:01:27
Yeah, I'll eat fur every day of the week.
Yeah, it's just, but it's my sister hates fur, so it's quite funny.
1:01:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's crazy.
1:01:35
So that's why I feel like maybe I should have a more original answer, but I'd say.
Beef and chicken. 100% double checking.
1:01:42
Just double.
Checking, I mean, anyone who gets chicken.
1:01:45
I'm like, really like.
No, no, you also, my grandparents from Vietnam are here and they had fur here in Bankstown and
1:01:53
they're like, it's so much better.
Yeah, they're like, it's so much better than in Vietnam.
1:01:57
And I was like, really?
It is the big quality, quality.
1:02:00
The big quality is better, so much better.
That makes sense.
1:02:03
Like for granted, yeah.
Like for Anne needs to like give me shares because I send so many people there.
1:02:10
It's best for Yeah, give me 100.
Percent Yeah, yeah, love it.
1:02:14
Next question what is 1 misconception people might have of you?
The one misconception people might have of me is that I'm really organised and I think people just
1:02:27
feel like I'm really like, got it together.
Yeah, yeah, really organised, really clean.
1:02:32
Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying that I'm dirty.
I'm living in a pig style.
1:02:36
I mean, look, I'm just, I'm, I can be a bit of a mess.
OK.
1:02:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think it's because I have I once I finished my day job, I just can't I I.
1:02:47
Yes, you have a.
Movie, yeah, I just don't have anything left it's.
1:02:51
Totally fair.
That's a.
1:02:52
That's a.
But when people realise that I'm a bit of a mess, like and a bit like you're giving us in my head,
1:03:00
yeah, that I think that a lot of people freak out about that.
Yeah, no, I think I just must give off this vibe that I'm.
1:03:06
Putting together, you know, OCD, Yeah.
Like I'm.
1:03:10
So relatable because people at work whenever like I make like a small like mistake like I told them
a story about something that happened in my personal life.
1:03:16
They're like.
That's so not you, but I'm like, yeah, I know.
1:03:21
And I get disappointed in.
Myself.
1:03:23
No, I'm like I'm, I'm I can be like, I'm pretty.
I'm late, yeah, all the time in at work.
1:03:30
But then I'm like social life.
I'm like always on time.
1:03:33
So I am a little bit of an oxymoron.
Yeah, so you really put your energy into one thing and then the next thing you.
1:03:39
Was just really funny, but I mean I should be early at work.
Away, yeah.
1:03:43
I'm always late at work, but social life I am always.
On.
1:03:48
Time so I think it's a small that I I think I give off certain clues and things and then if you
would just get shocked, but I'd say that.
1:03:57
Nice.
Last question, what is your favourite travel destination and why?
1:04:02
Can I say to yes?
Yes.
1:04:03
OK, so I, I want to say Italy because I had like the best time there a couple of years ago.
I've been to Italy a few times, but there's just something about it that I think I really feel like
1:04:18
I'm taken out of my own world and there's just something about the way Italians live life that I
just, I, I can't get it passed.
1:04:26
So Poulia, Italy is just absolutely amazing, but Vietnam is the other one for me.
And I know that's a bit cliche, obviously, like people saying you know where they're from.
1:04:36
But I recently visited Vietnam for like I hadn't gone back for like 12 years.
And when I went this year, I, I had that moment where I went, I get it.
1:04:49
It sounds so ridiculous, but I have a lot of friends who are like Greek, Croatian, Italian, and
whenever they go on holidays, they go back to where their parents were from.
1:05:00
And I used to think, why do they keep going back there?
Yeah, this time I got it.
1:05:05
Yeah, I went, oh, I must have been too young when I was young last time.
But there is something about being so proud to say I'm from here and it's such a beautiful country.
1:05:16
The people are phenomenal.
I just, yeah, absolutely had my heart this time.
1:05:21
It was just bizarre why I didn't feel this before.
Yeah, yeah.
1:05:24
And it made me think, alright, next time I'm like, get time off, I'm going to go back to Vietnam.
And I'm like, I get why people.
1:05:31
Keep coming back.
And it's that feeling of, oh, I see me here.
1:05:35
Yeah, yeah, I can see my my spirit, my heart, my soul is here.
And when I left, I remember being really sad.
1:05:43
So you're kind of a jewel.
Yeah, Yeah.
1:05:46
Yeah, love that.
Well, that wraps up our episode today.
1:05:49
Thank you for joining us.
Do you have anything you want to plug like smelly lunch stories or yourself or where?
1:05:53
Where can people find?
I would love to plug smelly lunch stories on LinkedIn is probably the best thing.
1:06:00
Join, sorry, follow us on LinkedIn to get any updates on future events, networking, mentoring
opportunities, or just just to kind of hear the good news and and getting get involved.
1:06:13
Awesome.
Thank you so much for joining us.
1:06:14
Thank you.
Bye.