State of Our Industry: How Inclusive is the Creative Industry?
EPISODE 24 — 24 OCTOBER 2022
“Most discrimination or negative behaviour goes unreported. So only the overt and extreme actions are the ones where people will more likely report the situation. But other incidents, such as microaggressions, which is more common, they’re actually invisible to leadership.”
ABOUT THE EP
How inclusive is your industry? The Create Space census is Australian advertising's first-ever industry-wide diversity, equity and inclusion (DE&I) survey by Advertising Council Australia and Kantar. As creative professionals passionate about this area, we dive deep into the findings, what they mean, and our experiences with DE&I in multiple areas within the industry.
THE DETAILS
Episode outline:
The good and the bad
Gender equality
Ethnic diversity
Physical ability and mental health
LGBTQI+ representation
Age discrimination
Social mobility
The industry's next steps
Ways we can support D&I
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Tracy
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast.
Wendy
Hello. We never quite know what to do with the intro, hey?
Tracy
Yeah, we never really have an opening. But hi, it's us again. So today, we're going to be talking about the current state of diversity, equity and inclusion in our creative industry, our experiences with it and our actions for the future. So to give everybody kind of a introduction, I guess we're going to be framing this episode using a report that recently came out about diversity and inclusion in the creative space. It's called the Create Space census. And this was something that was done across Australia's advertising industry. And it was the kind of the first industry wide diversity equity and inclusion survey that was ran by the Advertising Council Australia and Kantar. So we'll be using that to kind of frame and prompt our discussions today. Yeah, but to kind of begin and set the stage, Wendy, since becoming more aware of D&I in our industries, what has your observations of D&I been? And how do you feel that your industry or your workplace is doing in D&I?
Wendy
Yeah, this is a really good question. I guess it's not something that I've reflected on recently, because I think having moved through different workplaces in the past year, so I've moved like twice, it's harder to gauge this when you haven't been in a place for a really long time. So just reflecting on my past, like three years of experience, and what I've seen in the industry, I think when I was in uni, I couldn't help but notice that graphic design or visual communication was really dominated by females. Whereas in other design courses, such as, like, industrial design, that was more like male dominance. But in terms of cultural diversity, I didn't think that there was a large amount of like, Asian Australians during the course. So when I went into the industry, I had this perspective that a lot of the designers that I'll be working with, would probably be female. And that's the case that I see now, like, I feel like a lot of the people that I work with are like female designers. But as I've moved into product design, it's been a little bit more balanced. Because if you think about background, the educational background that people come from, product design spans over several like types of design, so like industrial design, but also graphic design. And so I think it's been a bit more balanced in terms of gender. But still, culturally, I wish I could see a little bit more people from like my background, also, from similar like socioeconomic backgrounds as me. And it's hard to engage that unless you really get to know someone and know their stories as well. But I think in terms of my workplace, specifically at Future Friendly, I've only been there for about four months. So in leadership and the general team, I'm seeing that there is a lot of gender diversity, which is reassuring. And I know that there's specific people within team working on things like the Reconciliation Action Plan regularly. So making strides in that, but I haven't really seen much in terms of diversity and inclusion in terms of how do they approach that with like recruitment, because I'm not very involved in that. But that's something that I've spoken to, you know, my seniors about, like wanting to get more involved in, and, like, you know, getting more involved with, I guess, like, juniors, and how do we hire people? And where do we hire them from? So I guess I'm making a conscious effort to make that like a plan for myself, but I think what I've noticed is in agencies, I think the onus is on the people and like not a single person but like a collective to really champion it. I noticed that at Deloitte, it's like there is a team specifically focused on D&I. So in agency, I guess it's like not as official. Whereas if you're in a big organisation, it's almost like if you don't do it, then it's going to appear in media.
Tracy
Yeah, not like education, for example, where they have a governing body.
Wendy
Yeah, so I think in agencies is less apparent, because you need people to champion it and you need people to really push it forward. Like what I'm seeing also is in leadership, like there's a lot more obviously white dominant males. And now it's like we emerge into the industry, I'm seeing a lot more like culturally diverse people like myself, come into the workforce and kind of influence change from the bottom up.
Tracy
Yeah, yeah.
Wendy
How about you in advertising?
Tracy
I think I'm seeing that as well. I feel like definitely in recent times, I'm seeing like a surge of focus on diversity and inclusion, which has been really great. Similar to Wendy, I think gender representation, gender diversity has always been, I think, quite good. Like, I've generally always worked in majority female teams and departments. I guess the only part where I would say, there's discrepancy is when you start going to the top, obviously, more males. But I think generally, I've never really been like, Oh I'm the only female, or I don't feel any discrimination because I'm a female, overt discrimination because I'm a female. So I feel like that I've always been like, quite proud of in terms of like, all the places I've been, or the agencies I've worked for, I feel like gender diversity was quite done quite well. Obviously, there's still more work to do in terms of, you know, non binary, queer people. But in terms of like, female-male split, that's been quite good. But like, Wendy, I think cultural and socioeconomic diversity has not been as prominent. I always find that like, yeah, there's not a lot of minority representation. But even more, so there's not a lot of people from low SES backgrounds. But I am kind of pretty excited that at the moment, the industry, everyone's taking action, I'm seeing my company specifically, take more action ever since this Create Space report was released. We've kind of done working groups, working sessions with the whole company on what we can we do about D&I, they've got an action plan for like, building a group afterwards to kind of champion it, but also have regular workshops with the wider company to work on D&I. So I think we're at a very exciting time at the moment now that the first step is done, which is recognise there is an issue with diversity. But now it's good to see companies kind of take action on it. So that's kind of our kind of experience so far with it. But definitely today, we want to go into the key findings of this report. So the census, the Create Space census was done across professionals across the advertising, media and marketing industry. So a whole bunch of different agencies, which I think will be quite similar to your industry, I guess, because it's the covers designers, creatives, everyone, so it's kind of really a look at the creative industry. And data was collected from over 2.5k professionals, and findings cover gender, age, ethnicity, sexual orientation, socioeconomic background, disability, mental health, neurodiversity, and cultural norms. So like really looking at our experience across those different areas of diversity. And what's really exciting is that the census will be repeated next year, but also every two years after that, so it's keeping us accountable.
Wendy
Yeah. So let's dive into I guess, like the good and the bad that we have, I guess, observed from the census itself. So some of the good points are we have an overarching inclusion index score of 62, which is far higher than our Australian national norm of 43, and just below the global industry scores of 64. So that's pretty good.
Tracy
Pretty good compared to like, the Australian national norm.
Wendy
Yeah, I think we're doing well. And it's actually better than other industries globally. So looking at financial services, retail, professional services, and public sector, which is kind of surprising, actually. Yeah.
Tracy
But then when you think about it, I'm kind of like, oh, maybe it makes sense. Because I feel like when we talk to other people, our friends who work in other areas, they don't really have initiatives about D&I. I think I've always been exposed to like, teams or groups at work, that are on the D&I counsel, or whatever it is.
Wendy
I wonder if it's because of the problems that we're trying to solve within our industries is is inherently very, like people focused? Like I know, for sure, like the kind of briefs that I work on, it's all about the customer. Right? So you want to have diverse perspectives and lived experiences helping you inform like the product that you're creating?
Tracy
Yeah, maybe because we're a younger industry as well maybe? I feel like the creative space, the creative industry, we're kind of known to be like, open, we're always pushing for change, we're with the time. So yeah, maybe that's also why it's like that?
Wendy
Yeah, those are just our assumptions. Yeah, but in this report, 75% of respondents felt a strong sense of belonging to their company, and 90% felt that they are valued and an essential part of their direct team. Junior staff had highest inclusion score of 67 and 73% say that their company are actively taking steps to improve and 53% say that we can do more.
Tracy
Yeah, so I think that's quite positive. I feel like it's not doom and gloom, like at least people feel that the companies are trying to do something. But there's also the bad I guess. That was the good now we look at the bad. The bad is one in five people are likely to leave the industry based on a lack of inclusion and discrimination. And this is compared to one in seven in the global census. There's also a high likelihood of turnover in marginalised staff, including women, gender nonconforming, LGBTQI+ people, people with physical or mental health conditions and those from ethnic minority groups. 8% of women have experienced sexual harassment in the last 12 months, which is kind of scarily a large number. Only 53% are aware of their company's D&I strategies, policies and procedures, and negative behaviours, or microaggressions, are widely reported across the industry. So it's interesting, I think, overall, it seems like people acknowledge that D&I is a thing that the industry cares about but when you kind of dive deeper, there's still some issues there that we need to fix.
Wendy
Yeah, I kind of liken it to like the topic of climate change, right? Like, it's like a very present topic that everybody's talking about. But when you go beneath the surface, and ask the hard questions of like, okay, what is your company doing? Or what are you doing? People probably find it harder to answer because they haven't been exposed to the right things to help them answer those questions.
Tracy
Yeah, it's like going the next step further. Yeah.
Wendy
So I feel like we're talking about it but we need to go that one step further to actually take action and do something about it. That's kind of what I interpret from stats.
Tracy
Yeah. Cool. The next section, we're gonna take a look, a closer look at the results per segment and the key call outs from it.
Wendy
So the first segment we'll look at is gender. So despite being a majority female workforce, gender still attracts the greatest discrimination. So at the junior exec level, 68% are female but when it gets to C suite and executive management level, only 46% are female. So it actually decreases as you get higher in the levels and ranks.
Tracy
When you were saying that a lot of graphic designers are females, I actually noticed that a lot of designers I work with are female but when you look at who is the creative director, yeah, generally male.
Wendy
Yeah, exactly. Right. Like all the creative directors, or people that I've interacted with as like leadership have mostly been male as well. Yeah. And that's like, across when I was in consulting and then I went into like, a very specific, like, service design agency, and now I'm in product design agency. So even across all of those, I'm noticing that as well. So what we can deduce from like those stats are, we are employing more women, but are less successful in recruiting and retaining them all the way to the top. I definitely see that not so much in my own agency but because we work so much with clients, I definitely see that because the clients we work with tend to be more, I guess, like traditional organisations such as like, retail or professional services, or like financial institutions as well. So I definitely do see that in their teams. Many women feel undervalued and disrespected, so they're six times more likely to experience gender discrimination. And females, especially those in middle management are at a much higher risk of leaving the industry altogether. That's really sad. It's almost like you feel like you're pressured to leave because there's just nothing you can do about your experiences that you're facing. And I think that goes to show that like, if you don't have people that you feel comfortable reaching out to who, you know, in the same boat as you like, maybe that's female, maybe that's culturally diverse people or people who have come from a similar background to you, you feel like there's no escape except to leave? Non binary people, which makes up 1% of the workforce, have a weaker sense of inclusion, and face more negative behaviour. So reflecting on all those stats, Tracy, maybe let's think about or reflect on what has been our experience being female in our industry. Have we felt undervalued, disrespected or treated differently due to gender? And do we have any like experiences with microaggressions?
Tracy
Yeah, I think I've never felt like me being a female has disadvantaged me, especially when I've always worked in female dominant teams. I've had really great female mentors and leaders to look up to so it's always been really great. But I do reflect on this and think about like microaggresions that I've observed. And maybe I didn't know at the time but definitely, I've noticed things such as, for example, male colleagues speaking over female colleagues, or not listening to them, and then rephrasing their answer and taking it as if it's their own. Yeah, I've definitely seen it in a client presentation, where we've had female leaders present to a group of like male clients, and I feel like the female opinion isn't as valued as when a male strategist comes in and says the exact same thing, and they go, Oh, well, that's amazing. So I've definitely seen yeah, I've definitely started noticing that more. I've also noticed, like, I don't know if you get it, but like, sometimes male colleagues feel like they need to come in and save the day. So there'll be an issue at work or like, you'll just be kind of venting to a male colleague, but then they feel like they need to fix the problem. So I don't know if there's like a heroic kind of aspect to it as well. And also, one that I've noticed is people asking the female colleagues to help set up a room or clean up a room or if not even asked to but if, after a meeting, you know, it's always the females cleaning up after the mess. After a client meeting, who brings out the drinks, who sets the table? For me, I've noticed it's always the females who take the initiative and go, let me go bring the water it and pour everyone's glasses. And then after the meeting ends, male colleagues just walk out the door, and then like, there's a mess here and I've noticed that the female colleagues always pick up the slack, and they clean up the mess.
Wendy
Yeah, I can't say that I've witnessed that merely because like, I guess, whenever we've had meetings, or had scenarios like that, we've been in a conference space where it's like, there are people hired to do that. And also with work working from home, you don't really notice that anymore, because you're not in the setting to do those things. So it comes as a surprise that I think I've had really different experiences. And I guess like what you were saying about the male needing to come in to save the day? I think it's less about like what they say but also, it's also how they go about something and like their actions speak louder than words, right? When I was reflecting on this question about my experiences of being female in the industry, I think, I realised that subconsciously, if I'm presenting to males, and specifically someone in leadership, this happened when I was like, I guess a lot more inexperienced, I would inherently just feel intimidated from the get go. And there will be an internal dialogue within myself thinking like, A, I'm young, B I'm female, C, I'm Asian. What does that mean in terms of how they're going to see me and the opinions that I hold as a person? So I think that really intimidated me when I was going through my job as like a graduate at Deloitte, because a lot of the time it was like presenting to male leaders or like males in the C suite. So I think as a result of that, like, I've tried to learn not to be so intimidated, but it's also dependent on the, I guess, the structure or the environment that your team builds for you as well. Because at Future Friendly, we really, truly believe in everyone presents their own work. And so no matter what level you're at, you're responsible for everything that you created. Whereas previously, it's kind of like, whoever's at the top is primarily known as a person who presents everything. And then you're there as a junior to just support right? And, yeah, that's kind of where I felt, I guess, like, I've questioned whether or not it's because I'm female, because I'm young, or because I'm Asian.
You never know, because is it because I'm female, Asian or young? Or a combination, that intersection between?
I just made assumptions, rather than, I guess, someone discriminating me directly. But I have had a bad experience where someone from like the same organisation was like giving, he was a senior manager, and he was giving me feedback about how I communicate. And then he was basically saying to me, like, I was trying to get entry to the client building. And he Skyped me and he was just like, I forget what the message was, but he was essentially telling me like, I'm a really busy person, like you should have told me that you needed entry to the building. And the thing is, he didn't pull me aside to tell me, like we were working in person that day. I don't want to make assumptions about what he was doing or make excuses for him but he literally just sent me a Skype message to give me feedback, I'm like, you really could have just pulled me aside and face to face told me this feedback, I would have rather, you know, received it that way. And it was kind of like really passive aggressive. And from that moment, I just had a really bad like a sour taste in my mouth about him as a leader, as someone who I couldn't go to if I had issues on this project. And similarly, on the same project, one of the male grads was telling me like, Oh, you shouldn't email the director, because he's a really busy person. He's like, Oh, you shouldn't have emailed him asking questions about like printing, and I was like, um, I have established this relationship with this director and this is how we're going to communicate. I think those experiences is where it relates back to what you were saying about males coming in feeling like they need to safe the day.
Tracy
Yeah, or need to, like assert dominance.
Wendy
Yeah, or have an opinion. It's like, okay, like, why are you telling me this? Like, do you want me to improve? Or it's just because you want me to know what your opinion is? But what's the benefit of it? Like, if you want to, if you want me to improve as a person, then that's totally the wrong approach. But that was like, say, three years ago. And that goes back to you know, it's about the environment that you create for your team. If you create an open dialogue to give feedback, then you won't need to use things like email or Skype to give feedback. And I think that's kind of like what was wrong with that project team? Like, that's how they communicate with each other.
Tracy
Yeah, I feel like I've noticed that like the leaders who are most effective generally for me, they're female, because I think they're more empathetic. But also, I've noticed really great male leaders, but they tend to be more in touch with the emotions.
Wendy
And they're not afraid to talk about things like their home life, or their lived experiences, right. Whereas the ones that I feel like a harder to reach or connect to are the ones that kind of hold up a persona of like, something like, you can't touch me, always right, type vibe. So I think it's yeah, it's interesting observing, and kind of reflecting on those experiences now, because definitely, at the time, I just felt like absolutely shit being on the receiving end of them. And because of, I guess, the organisation that I was in, and the level that I was at as a junior as well, I just thought, Oh, this must be normal. Right? So I guess I'll just like, set it up and soak it in, right? And it goes back to those stats that we just went through. I could have if I felt very overwhelmed, I could have just been like, I hate this, I want to leave. Rather than thinking like, Oh, maybe I should talk to someone about this and raise it as a concern. But I felt like, okay, as a grad, I shouldn't have an opinion. So that's not talking about Yeah, I think
Tracy
the good thing about like, things like this initiative is like, once you people are aware of it, it gives them a platform to talk about it.
Wendy
I talk about those experiences all the time, even now that I've moved on from the organisation. And I said to my founder, the other day, I was like, he was just asking me like, how are you finding your experience of Future Friendly? I was like, honestly, compared to my past, this is absolutely amazing. And that's because I've had bad lived experiences so now I know what I have is actually good.
Tracy
Yeah. So on that, like, have you ever thought about leaving your job or your industry because of your gender?
Wendy
Not necessarily because of my gender. But maybe because I didn't see representation of where I could go. In terms of my future, I didn't see examples of what I could attain. And so therefore, it kind of felt impossible. And my only like, I guess, way out of that was like, I'm going to go and find more like minded people, or I'm going to find a company that has like people in leadership, because it feels a lot more attainable that way. Like you can't be what you can't see.
Tracy
I think I haven't like, immediately thought about it. But I've definitely looked into my future like, I've gone, At the moment, I don't think I would stay in this industry permanently, if that makes sense. Because of the things I'm aware of, which is like, pay's not that great. The pay gap. I feel like with family responsibilities in the future, it's a very demanding industry. But I think work life balance is better on client side. So I've always thought like, yeah, in the future, when I like want to settle down when I have a family, I would rather go client side or another job where I actually do nine to five, and I don't have to work that hard for such little pay. And I think that comes with, I guess, your female responsibilities that I feel like males don't really have to worry about, like having a child, supporting a child. I mean, they'd probably do but like, you know, I mean, like, having time off and things like that. So I think I've thought about that in the future, but like, not in the present.
Wendy
Yeah. I don't think I ever reached the decision that I would stay at a place for a really long time until I came to Future Friendly, mainly because of like, a lot of the people who are in leadership and my team, they're all new mums and dads, and we're quite a young team. And so I was like, that could be me in like 10 or 15 years, and seeing how they flex their time with like school pick up, or, you know, taking parental leave, it's the same for both males and females. And I just feel like, because I see that in leadership, it feels like, that's the future that I'm like heading towards, if I get to that point in my life. That's what it would look like. Yeah, flexibility.
Tracy
That's a good point. Because honestly, I work with mums who work part time, like four days a week, and they're still working on Fridays, even though it's their days off, because during the week, they've got carer responsibilities or picking up children, which everyone is fine about, everyone's flexible, they can flex their time, but I feel like they feel that they've got so much work left that in the week, they have to work on the day off. Yes, I think yeah, like you said, it's kind of leadership setting that expectation.
Wendy
I guess like your work is a lot more like deadline based and there's a lot riding on it, because you're delivering something. We're also delivering something but I guess, because I've seen leadership kind of say to us, or like people who are advising us on our projects, pretty much say like, if you need more time, let's work that out. Like, let's figure out if we need to add more scope to this project, or if we need to descope things. So having that in mind, and that coming from leadership makes me think that like we do it in such an unapologetic way that people really value who you are as a person and the responsibilities that you have, whether that's a parent, as a carer, or just you individually, like your mental health if you need to attend to certain things, everyone just takes like flex leave, which is what we call it, and there's no questions asked. And so I think that's why I've thought about it less and less. Whereas like, you know, in previous organisations, I felt like, if I was sick, I still needed to work. Or I would always need to offer like, oh, you know, you can text me? Or like, even though I'm off sick, you can text me or you can email me, or call me if you need anything. Yeah, but I think as we gradually move into the industry and become more experienced, we know what our non-negotiables are. And if we see something wrong with it, I feel more confident in speaking up now. Whereas previously, I would have had such an internal battle about like, what does this mean for me? Why is this happening to me? Whereas now it's kind of like, okay, this is happening to me, but what can I do about it? And who can I go to to speak about it?
Tracy
Yeah. Moving on to our next segment, which is ethnicity. So in the creative industry, our ethnic diversity is actually reasonably on par with Australian population. But we are yet to see this at senior levels. So having diversity is not translated into equal experiences of inclusion and lack of discrimination. So the ethnic majority is Anglo Celtic, European and North American, and the ratio of ethnic minority to majority at senior levels is disproportionate to the ratio of our workforce as a whole. If you're looking at in total numbers, we've got ethnic diversity but when you're looking at just senior roles, it's not really there, essentially. And the ethnic minority groups facing the highest rate of racial discrimination are Chinese Asians, Southeast Asians, Southern Asians, Africans and Indigenous people. They are also more likely to leave the industry. So I guess not surprising.
Wendy
Yeah. Because I think if you think about like the workforce, people who are in leadership roles have probably been in the industry for like, 40 years, like 30-40 years, right? And if you think about when our parents came to Australia, that was for me anyway, that was 26 years ago. And so it's only now that we're seeing people or children of like, migrant parents move into the industry. So it's kind of like a new wave of people coming in.
Tracy
And I think people like hire who they think is similar to them as well. So you know, if leaders are white, they'll generally support people who have similar backgrounds to them. So the more Asians or people of minority groups in leadership positions, the more kind of growth that area will have. Yeah. Do you see ethnic minorities in leadership roles at work and how does that impact you whether you do you don't see them?
Wendy
Yeah, I think to my earlier point, it's varied as I've moved workplaces. Like if you think about how long an organisation has been around, Deloitte has been around for a really long time, right? And so I think, inherently, it kind of makes sense why there's less cultural diversity in leadership. But also I could see that there was more of a conscious effort being put into like, who would make partner that year, it would be like a split of like this many females versus this many males or this many non-binary people as well. So I think for an organisation that has been around for a really long time, like they're starting to make different changes now. But I was exposed to more people who were male, it was more male dominant in leadership and more white. Whereas as I've moved into agencies that are a lot younger, who've only been around for like, 10-15 years, because our workforce is also a lot younger, I feel like there's more gender diversity, more cultural diversity, as well. So yeah, it's varied as I've moved across different workplaces. But seeing more people who haven diversity in ethnic minorities emerge has given me hope that it's changing.
Tracy
Yeah, I think so. I think I've definitely seen, I guess, less, as in like, in terms of leadership roles, they're generally majority white, which we expect, and it's like, as per the results, but I'm always so like, pleasantly surprised when I see like, those of culturally diverse backgrounds in leadership roles, and I have seen them, it's not impossible. Like, I think maybe except my very first agency, at every other agency I've been at, I've seen people who are from minority backgrounds in leadership roles. And I think that's such a promising sign. Because I actually remember at uni when I used to, like intern for marketing companies or advertising companies, I rarely saw like, for example, Asians in leadership roles, but now say, like, seven years later, or however long it's been since first year uni, I'm seeing a lot more like Asians in leadership roles. And like Wendy said, it definitely gives me reassurance that it's possible. And I always gravitate towards them, obviously, because they're similar backgrounds. And like, I'd love to, like understand, like, their journey and how they got to where they are. And I always try to ask, like, you know, what is your experience with like, you know, discrimination in the industry? How did you get where you are? But it's also interesting, because sometimes I find like, you might see an Asian, for example, in a leadership role, but it is so different from what you are, if that makes sense, like, obviously, there's not one type of person, there's not one type of Asian, but if you see a Chinese person in leadership, they might not have come from low SES backgrounds, like we did. So the more representation we get, the more stories we can kind of share.
Wendy
But yeah, interestingly enough, reflecting on it, in terms of people who have like, cultural diverse backgrounds in senior, like leadership roles, a lot of them were actually like international people, or people with international experience, like that was a lot more attractive than, say, an Asian Australian who's grown up in Australia all their life making it to leadership. Like that was especially when I was at Deloitte, a lot of the Asian leaders that I saw were probably mostly from like, a different country.
Tracy
Or from my experiences, they have been from very well off families.
Wendy
Yeah. Or they've been in Australia for like, several generations.
Tracy
Yes. So I think it's nice that we acknowledge that as well. Like, just because you see an Asian in leadership, it doesn't mean it represents you, or the experiences.
Wendy
Yeah, that's what I mean about like, you can't really tell. You can't make assumptions about someone's socioeconomic background until you get to know their story. Or until you ask those questions that you mentioned earlier of like, you know, what's been their experience getting to where they are today, what's their background.
Tracy
Yeah, that's a good point. Because at one of my previous workplaces, I met with the like, I don't know, what do you call like, we have a holding group that holds our company, and then she's like, one of the top dogs in the industry, basically. And I had a mentoring chat with her and she is not Asian, she appears white, if that makes sense. And like, I made these assumptions that like, oh, she's a white female leader. But when I met with her, she was actually like, born and raised in the West, like from like, Eastern European parents. And like their family were migrants as well, and they came with nothing, and she grew up in like a low SES background. So like you said, like, you can't make these assumptions. Because then after that, I was like, Oh, my God, like, I can relate to her so much, even though she's not Asian. She has a similar experience in terms of growing up in the West and, you know, being from the ghetto, whatever you call it.
Wendy
I guess it'd be important for us to also like reflect on how we've leveraged our individual like cultural experiences at work. I personally don't really shy away from sharing my lived experiences with people at work like I make an effort or make a conscious effort to share things from like my culture. Because I think that invites people to ask you questions about why you do certain things. And it creates like the safe space for them to be curious. Whereas if you never never share anything about your culture, they don't feel comfortable asking you about it, either. Or they don't feel comfortable coming to you and asking for your opinion or your perspective.
Tracy
Yeah, I think it's a strength being from like a cultural diverse background. Because when all the leaders you see are from one particular background, you being different and offering a different perspective that's actually going to differentiate you and gives you leverage.
Wendy
Yeah, and my workplace like, I think the fact that we make it one of our like, values that everybody shares their own work, that, to me, means that you share your own work, because they also are acknowledging that you've probably got different lived experiences. Everyone has a different perspective. And in sharing your own work, it's like creating the space for everyone to bring their own opinion to the table. Whereas if it's like, oh, I'm the most senior person in the room, so I'm going to present everything, it's just like stopping people from feeling comfortable, like even having an opinion in the first place. Because they're like, oh, that person's got to speak for all of us so let's just sit back and let them speak for me.
Tracy
Yeah, I think these days, I definitely see like being Asian, being from a minority group, is a strength, and I always try to remind myself or like, I also always speak out in terms of my opinions about diversity and inclusion, and when something doesn't sit right, I'm always like, the first to say something about it. If a client is like, we want this ad to be more diverse, and then the suggestions that come out, like aren't really authentic or right, I'm always the first person to say, hey, like, that's not right. Like, from my lived experiences, this is my experience with it and how I feel like we should represent it. But it's like opening up that conversation and feeling the confidence to because I am from that background.
Wendy
And even having it respected as well, for people to actually listen to you and respond to your perspective is another thing, too, rather than kind of being dismissed and swept under the rug? Which I'm sure happens in other organisations as well. Yeah. Let's move on to the next segment, which is about physical ability and mental health. So 58% of our industry is living with a mental health or physical health condition. Many are also not reporting their condition to the workplace. There's also a dual challenge here, where, like, how do we create an environment where people feel like they can safely disclose their challenge or their impairment, but also address like negative behaviours and microaggressions?
Tracy
I think that that is really scary, like 58% of people are living with a mental health or physical health condition. But personally, that's more than half the people, so one in two, but at work, one in two people, I wouldn't assume that they would have a mental health problem or a physical health problem because they're not disclosing it.
Wendy
Yeah. And you also don't want to assume that about someone, it's not the first thing you think like, Does this person have a mental health disability? I feel like it's something that people need to bring to the table themselves, and therefore creating the right space for them to bring it to the table is really important, right? But I've had colleagues pretty much say like, oh, I have this disability so this is how I work because that is how I operate. And there's no, there's absolutely no issue with it. Because you hear that and you're just like, okay, then you make a conscious effort to respect how they work, and what their what their needs are. So I really value when someone's really honest, because I'm like, Okay, now I can work to help you. Rather than you feeling like you need to live up like to unspoken standards because you don't feel safe enough to, to disclose that you've got a mental health disorder or disability as well.
Tracy
Yeah. I think just being aware that, you know, it's such a prevalent issue that you when you're working with people don't make assumptions that, you know, certain people can do certain things, if that makes sense. Yes, people work differently. People have different priorities, people have different ways of working, that we need to be open to and respect as well. The next segment is sexual orientation. So despite being an industry commonly characterised by being felt as very open, almost a third of the LGBTQI+ respondents chose not to disclose their orientation at work. So the visibility of this group in more senior roles is not in line with the overall distribution, possibly because many are not out at work. So 26% of LGBTQI+ respondents have experienced negative behaviour in their workplace. 52% have observed casual discrimination, and 30% have heard complaints about being "too politically correct". So yeah, obviously, we don't have the personal experience to talk about it, and I haven't actually seen a lot of like stories or like perspectives at work about this area. So I'd be interested to know if you have any experiences?
Wendy
Yeah, yeah, this one's a hard one. Because like, obviously, we don't have the lived experiences, any lived experiences, to speak to. But one of my biggest projects at Deloitte was what we called Outstanding 50. So that was an initiative that Deloitte runs every second year. And essentially, it recognises 50 leaders in who are part of the LGBTQI+ community, who are doing amazing work in their industries, to bring that to the forefront. And through that project, I learned so much about how people show up at work, being a part of their community and how they hold themselves, and having the pride of being a part of that community. I feel like through that, now, I notice or respect people's pronouns more consciously. I also feel like that led me to think about how do I show up at work as an ally. I think it's harder now, because I'm still getting to know my colleagues at Future Friendly as well. And whereas at Deloitte, it was a community that had already been established and because of this initiative that was also established. And so being really directly, I guess, impacted by it, because I was part of the project team, I had become more conscious of those things. And that's what I mean by like, you go through certain experiences that bring these issues to the forefront that you may not have been conscious of before. So that now has led me to feel like I do have some experience. But there's also so much for me to learn.
Tracy
Even what you said about being an ally, I think, like when you carry yourself in that manner, it is like contagious, like it will expose other people doing that as well. Like, an example is, in our signature, the template doesn't have pronouns on it, like you know how normally your email signature like, these days, a lot of people are choosing to put their pronouns in the email signature, but I hadn't even thought about it. But then I saw somebody in their email signature incorporate it into the template. And I was like, Oh, I didn't even think of it like, it didn't cross my mind, because it wasn't in the template. So the fact that I saw my colleague put their pronouns in the signature I started putting in as well. And it's kind of like the little things you could do to like, kind of try to start something. But also like, people have started to, when they introduce themselves to other people, like stating their pronouns, and it's something we're not used to, because it's not a habit we have, but when you're meeting people, not assuming what their pronouns are, that's really important. And something we have to remind ourselves constantly, because it's not something that we are used to doing.
Yeah, because we're not a part of that community, it doesn't mean that we can't play a part. But yes. So the next segment is age. So the workforce skews younger compared to profile of employed people in Australia. And the skew is even more pronounced in female staff. So there are more than 60% of female respondents who are aged under 35. The industry is also employing far fewer people aged 45+ compared to the overall Australian workforce. But despite making up the majority of the workforce, the 25 to 44 age group have relatively poor inclusivity experiences compared to their younger or older co-workers.
So it's like we're a industry with younger people, but the younger people are receiving more discrimination, I guess.
Wendy
Which is very ironic, right? Have you had any negative experiences due to age?
Tracy
I don't know, to be honest. Like it's hard to tell. Like you were saying, is it because I'm Asian, because I'm female, because I'm young? But definitely like feeling the feeling subconscious that I'm young. Like, I used to be in meetings, where I'll be like, Oh my god, I'm the youngest in the room and then suddenly, I will just feel like no one's listening. But I think it could be in my head as well, if that makes sense. So internal dialogue and yes, internal dialogue, because sometimes I feel like, Oh, am I not being respected enough because I'm young? Like, is my opinion not carrying enough weight because I'm young? So it's more so like the questions that I have in my head rather than the experience of it. But I've definitely heard of other people who have been told that they're too young for certain role, and they don't have enough experience for a certain role despite being so good at their job. So another one is also people talking about Gen Zs in a negative way. For Gen z's, like, I don't know why, but they just get a bad rep.
Wendy
Yeah, I think it's also because people are acknowledging like Gen Z is now entering the workforce. And it's like, they're obviously radically quite different in the way that they perceive certain things and the opinions that they carry. I've heard people say, like, yeah, Gen Zs are not afraid to, like, say what they think, own it. Like, it's very unapologetic in that way. And, you know, I feel like we're in a weird space in terms of our age, because we're almost between Millennials and Gen Z, in terms of like, the types of trends that we pick up the best of both worlds. So because of that, I've had experiences where, like, let's use TikTok, for example, right? Initially, I was like, do I tell people that I use TikTok? Or is that like, a very Gen Z thing of me? And will people respect me less if I mentioned something I've seen on TikTok, right? And if I adopt those perspectives, will people think like, I'm just being like, Oh, another young person, you know, who has an opinion but it doesn't really matter. So I've had those internal dialogues as well. But what I've noticed is like, obviously, with these trends that pop up, if you don't harness them, regardless of your age, you're not gonna be able to consider like, the broader perspectives. And a lot of the work that we create at Future Friendly is like, obviously, product driven, right? So we're creating products, and we're creating products for people of the future. So if we can't understand where they're coming from, then we're creating products blindly. And that's also with user testing. We do that a lot. We use their opinions to inform our, like, iterations, what we design, and so I think you, in order to do that work, you need to be open minded. Because if you're not open minded, then inherently you've got like some bias when you're going through the insights that you've seen through testing. And the way that you register, it is not going to be the same as someone who's being open minded and thinking, Oh, actually, that's a really great idea or that's a really great opinion, let's consider it. So having an open mind and not disregarding people's perspectives because of their age, I think is really important, especially in the work that I do. So I think I've never been told, like, you're too young to do something but I have had that internal dialogue, especially when I entered the workforce, I was like, Okay, I think, because of the way the company was structured at Deloitte, it was like, you're a grad, there's a certain expectations of how you should behave. Basically, you do all this should work, and you just don't have an opinion, you just do the work, right. Whereas being in more of a flat hierarchy organisation, I've never inherently felt like, Okay, I shouldn't say this, because, like, of my age, or I feel invalid because of my age. So I think it comes down to like, how the company is structured as well, and the environment that it creates.
Tracy
I think one thing we can also watch out in saying is that, you know, when people ask, like, how old you are how and then they go, Oh, you're so young. I think that's something, like a little thing, a little comment that people can like refrain from saying, because it kind of validates that the internal dialogue like, am I so young, you know, yeah. The next segment, and the last segment is social mobility. So I actually found this one the most interesting segment. So employees are more likely to come from privileged backgrounds with far more coming from professional middle class family backgrounds, and relatively more having attended a private or fee paying school compared to the overall population. So you're generally more likely to meet people who come from like, well off backgrounds and have come from private schools, which is interesting. So those who attended private/fee paying schools are over represented as 54% versus the national average of 35%, which is pretty interesting. So that's like half of the people coming from private schools, compared to 35% of the national average. Additionally, the entry level roles are often low paying and the industry favours those who can afford higher education or industry training, which means a certain level of privilege and family support is needed to enter the industry. I find that really interesting because I actually see that at my workplace. A lot of the people I speak to, they've come from private schools, and I never really noticed that before until recently for some reason. Maybe because I've never really asked people what school did you come from?
Wendy
It's not a conversation starter question.
Tracy
Not really. But like, I don't know why, but currently in the workplace, these conversations have come up. And it's interesting to see that like everyone can relate to a private school experience, and I'm like the few that's been to a public school.
Wendy
I feel like it's a topic that you discuss if you're working with people of a similar age because you're more interested in their background. And you're like, Oh, I wonder if we like know each other or something like that. That's what I experienced when I was a grad. Because obviously, when you're a grad, most of the people that are being hired a probably around your age, so you ask questions like, what school did you go to? What ATAR did you get? All those questions, but I've never once been asked now that I've been in industry for four years, I've never once been asked like, what school did you go to?
Tracy
Yeah.
Wendy
Yeah, most people really only ask where do you live? And I feel like that's an indication of like, where you grew up as well. But that's as far as it goes in terms of like, trying to figure out what someone's socioeconomic status is.
Tracy
Yeah. It's interesting. And I think the point here about like, you need more privilege to enter this industry, like, it kind of makes sense because the entry levels are low paying so you need to be able to feel financially comfortable to pursue a creative career.
Wendy
Yeah, no, I definitely feel that a lot of people who I studied with, were generally people who had been like, their parents had been in Australia for a long time, and they're multiple generations in Australia, right? Whereas for myself, when I was looking for a job after uni, like, it wasn't just about like, Oh, I'm gonna go work at an agency that has a really great reputation. Beyond that, it was also about the pay. Whereas I feel like people who had like parents who worked in like white collar jobs were more comfortable talking about like culture, as opposed to valuing, like how much they were gonna get paid. So what it was less of a priority for them. Whereas for us, it's like been drilled into us you need to worry about how much you're going to get paid. Because that's pretty much what secures your future as well, on your level of comfort in the future.
Tracy
How do you experience these socioeconomic disparities in other ways at work?
Wendy
I think I notice the disparities when people talk about their personal lives. So when my colleagues talk about their families, and their experiences as like parents, or when they talk about like, oh, what they're gonna do on the weekend, I'm like, Oh, wow, that's kind of different to what I do. And also, like, when they asked me where I live, I always make an effort to say, I grew up in southwest Sydney but now I live in XYZ, and I've only recently moved out from my parents place. But in addition to that, I also when people talk about, like their pathways into university as well, like some people just went to like college, whereas like, I went to a university. And that was mainly because like, I never thought that TAFE or college was even an option. And that's where I see the disparity, or I feel the disparity between myself, and someone that's maybe like, gone through TAFE because they've made a career change. Like, there's definitely nothing wrong with that but I feel like I went down the more traditional Asian path. How about you?
I think that same when talking about like, kind of personal lives, you kind of get, like, colleagues speaking about what their parents do and it's like white collar jobs, like really high up there in the corporate ladder and things like that, that you couldn't even imagine having migrant parents, and then not being able to engage with those certain conversations because you don't have the experience to kind of relate to like, being in a private school or like having parents in office jobs or like, like you said, the hobbies they do outside of work, like, no golf and stuff.
Even the music that they listen to all right, like, a lot of, I don't know when like, say a song comes on, I've had colleagues say, Oh, my parents used to play this song so much growing up, and I'm kind of just like, what is the song?
Tracy
Or like, Oh, my parents and I used to go every year to this beach house somewhere up north.
Wendy
Yeah. Or like they have a farm. Yeah, can't relate, you know?
Tracy
So, the overall themes and the next steps of the report is what we'll cover next. So overall themes from the report is microaggression is a common form of exclusion. So what microaggressions is, is the everyday subtle, intentional and sometimes unintentional interactions or behaviours that communicate some sort of bias towards a marginalised group. So these are less recognisable more subtle. So for example, being spoken over, people taking credit for your work, exclusion from events, calling women girls and not calling men boys, looking at your phone whilst talking to someone, assuming our older colleague cannot use technology. So microaggression is the formal kind of discrimination that came up the most in the report, which I guess kind of makes sense. Other findings are age and gender are the most common forms of discrimination. Most discrimination or negative behaviour goes unreported. So only in the overt and extreme actions, they're the ones where people will more likely report the situation. But other incidents such as microaggressions, which is more common, they're actually invisible to leadership.
Wendy
In addition to this, a note on the diversity and inclusion in the work we create, the top five most underrepresented groups in the creative industry are those with different physical abilities, a diverse range of gender identities and sexual orientations, diverse physical appearance, diverse mix of ethnicity, and older people as aspirational and without negative stereotypes. So, in conclusion, the challenge is to create a deeply inclusive environment. One in five people are saying they're likely to leave the industry based on lack of inclusion and discrimination. And of those who are likely to leave, 70% are women and 45% are between 25 and 34.
Tracy
Yeah. So I think the challenge for our industry is how can we make our places more inclusive so that people don't leave because of discrimination?
Wendy
And like, also acknowledging that 25 to 34, this is the future of our leadership teams, right? These are people who are rising in the ranks. So if we can't keep those people in the industry and harness their skills, then it's not a very bright future to look towards.
Tracy
It's quite dire if you lose these key groups of people, and 70% women, that's huge. So look at the report, we'll link it in the show notes, it'll be interesting to see where our industry kind of takes this report and how different companies interpret this and do things about it.
Wendy
Some other ideas of like what we can also do, there are a series of resources from that particular report that we can link. So one of them is The Guide to Tackling Microaggressions. So the key points that we've noted from this guide is to educate yourself, step up as an ally, raise awareness of microaggressions amongst colleagues and friends, and the last one is to advocate for organisational and/or policy changes.
Tracy
We'll also link in another resource called The Six Ways to Actually Push Diversity. So one, saying you employ lots of women does not count as true diversity, you need to consider ethnicities, socioeconomic backgrounds, age and more. If most of the women are white, it's not really true diversity. Two, hiring POCs at lower salaries is a massive setback, pay your POCs more, don't wait for them to ask for it. Three, make a safe and inclusive space, everyone has to do it not just HR, don't dismiss discrimination, prove that you have a zero tolerance policy. And next is tip the scales in favour of POCs, promote them, encourage them to speak up, give them more leadership opportunities, you can't be what you can't see. Second last one, be an ally, start meaningful conversations and speak up. And the last one is to push your clients to push diversity. So push back on clients and get all types of diversity into your ads and your creative work.
Wendy
That's super interesting because I think the work that we do is so like client heavy, right? So we're not just responsible for what we do in our immediate organisation, but as people who are helping consult with a client, like we have a responsibility to help them change their organisation as well and make them make suggestions to help them grow as well in this place.
Tracy
Yeah, I think that's really important. I think actually pushing your client is a very effective way to kind of get more diversity and inclusion into the mainstream.
Wendy
Because you've also been brought in to be that advisor, right? So you might as well harness the power of that, and not just like answering the brief immediately, but beyond that, like looking at how they can grow like diversity, inclusion, and other issues as well. The last one is a interesting challenge from #onlyoneintheroom. So this is an organisation that Tracy and I follow, and basically, they have something called Destroy This Brief. And the brief is the creative and advertising industry needs diversity of thought, not only to continue creating culture shaping work, but to simply survive and remain relevant. So the ask from this brief is, how can we make it easier for our industry to not only consider but attract diverse talent? So what they're looking for is submissions with creative solutions of every shape and size that truly answers the brief. For example, is that a partnership with universities or other organisations? Is it changing existing regulations? Is it through an interagency commitment? And what they're looking for are submissions. So you can go on their website and have a look at the brief, read more details about it. Final submissions are due on the 31st of October.
Tracy
And I think the selected winner, they will actually work with them to make this idea a reality, which is pretty cool.
Wendy
Cool. I think that's like a nice place for us to close off this discussion. I mean, for me, personally, this report opened up a lot more like questions for me, in terms of like what I can do as an individual to start questioning some of the things that I'm doing at my workplace.
Tracy
Yeah. And I think for me, like, I've loved that this report kind of went through the different segments. I guess like diversity and inclusion is so broad and sometimes when Wendy and I about it, in my head, I might be tunnel visioned in cultural diversity. But when we went through this report, there's like age, there's socioeconomic, there's, you know, physical abilities, there's everything. It's just like showing you that there's so much breadth to this topic, and really educating us on what else we can do in those other areas.
Wendy
Yeah. On to our dinner table questions. If you could pick up one new skill instantly, what would it be?
Tracy
Um, so I would like to know how to dance or cook. I feel like they're very useful skills to have.
Wendy
Yeah, I was thinking like music talent, because we don't have any musical talents. Yeah, but I was thinking like cooking because I feel like cooking now is very, like, prevalent time in my life to be good at cooking. And I feel like so much is centred around food for us. So yeah, I want people to think that I'm like a really great cook.
Tracy
Or like speaking a different language, Vietnamese or Chinese. Um, the next question is, would you want a time machine or a magic wand?
Wendy
I think a magic wand. Because I think everything happens for a reason. And I wouldn't want to change anything in my past because it's shaped who I am today.
Tracy
But what would you do with the magic wand?
Wendy
I mean, if it means like, say I could help someone in that moment and I could just wave a magic wand to do that, then yeah, I want to have that. Yeah. How about you?
Tracy
I think me too. Yeah. Magic wand. I'll make myself a lot of money. I'll make myself rich. I don't need to go back in time or forward in time. I don't really need to redo anything. So yes, yeah.
Wendy
It's more instantaneous thing. What is something ridiculous you believed in as a kid?
Tracy
So Barney, you know Barney?
Wendy
Yeah, the purple dinosaur.
Tracy
I thought it was real. Because I had a Barney toy growing up. And I used to watch Barney and they would wish for Barney to come alive or something like that. But I was always like, with my toy, like, come alive. Maybe I could have what the TV show did. So when I was a child, I genuinely thought maybe my Barney toy could come alive.
Wendy
Yeah. I feel like it was probably something similar. Like I used to watch, it's like fairies, and they're like these two fairies, one was like blonde and one was brunette. I've forgot what the premise of the show was, but essentially, they had like magical powers to transform and stuff. And I thought that was like real. For a long time. I think it's mostly just things that you see on TV. Like magic. Right? Anyway, that's it for this episode. As always, follow us on Instagram. Join the conversation @aseatatourtable.podcast. Also give our website a peep aseatatourtable.com.au.
Tracy
Leave us a review as well. Yeah, leave us a five stars.
Wendy
Yes, please. No, but we obviously want to hear more about I guess like how we can always improve. On our website at the very bottom in the footer, there is a little suggestion box, put in new ideas and maybe guests you will want us to reach out to as well. Until next time, bye!
Tracy
Bye