From Corporate Burnout to Slow Travel Blogging (w/ Cereal for Lunch)
EPISODE 16 — 10 JUNE 2022
“Recognising that the reason you’re burnt out isn’t actually negative. It can feel negative because you’re like, “I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know like what’s meaningful, or like, why can’t I keep up with this?” But that’s actually coming from a very positive place. Maybe you actually just want to be doing something more meaningful or maybe you are just tired. It’s not necessarily you, and it can be the environment that’s too much.”
ABOUT THE EP
Ling and Jace are mixed Asian-Australians living in Sydney. When bushfires tore through the country a few years ago, they decided to change everything and find ways to contribute to the bigger picture.
They pivoted from corporate law to photography and policy, and now run a blog @cereal.for.lunch where they share travel stories, landscape photography and conversations around biodiversity and sustainability. They have been featured in WILD Wellbeing magazine and explore the connection between nature and mindfulness.
THE DETAILS
The origin story of Cereal for Lunch
Learning and experimenting with photography for the first time
Burnout from corporate law and the decision to transition out
What does Ling & Jace's 'work week' look like now?
Focusing on slow and sustainable travelling
An insight into the creative process behind Cereal for Lunch
Advice for aspiring creatives
Staying present whilst capturing content
How Cereal for Lunch has shaped Ling & Jace's relationship
Lessons on managing burnout
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Wendy
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Today, we have a very special episode yet another one with two guests who I've known for a couple of years. Ling and Jason from Cereal for Lunch.
Ling
Thank you.
Wendy
So obviously, I feel like not a lot of our listeners will have come across like your content before. But I think I might start with, I guess, like how I know you both because it's been an interesting journey with our friendship. And I think our friendship is kind of like a testament to how creatives like us come together and come apart as well. And I feel like that's like our friendship. So we met in uni, I think Ling and I met in uni at UTS. We were doing the student magazine Vertigo, together. So you were Editor-in-Chief? Right?
Ling
Yeah and you were the most amazing designer! It was a nice way to meet.
Wendy
Yeah. I feel like it was such a stressful year because like we were pretty much producing an entire magazine all by ourselves. And it was like a lot of late nights and I feel like I knew Jase through you because he was waiting. It was a lot of late nights but I feel like it was very rewarding.
Ling
Definitely.
Wendy
It was probably the start of how we've become such big creators in like, the editorial space as well. Right? I still have a big appreciation for it, even though I'm not into it... So do you want to tell us a little bit about like yourselves? Maybe what your cultural background is?
Ling
Sure. I mean, firstly, it was so good to meet you see that because I think like uni was a lot. But it was something we were all like pouring a lot of our time into and got a lot from just making, like the fact that we could just spend hours in a day making something from nothing was really fun. Yeah, and then I guess Jason and I, our creative side is like much more recent than that, so after uni. But yeah, we're basically like mixed Asian Australians in Sydney.
Jace
Yeah, my Mum's Chinese and my Dad's half Hungarian half New Zealand. Your dad's also half Scottish?
Ling
Scottish? Scottish name... And then yeah, my Mum's from China as well. So we've both grown up with like a kind of the mixed background, mixed households - quite similar in some ways.
Wendy
How did you guys meet?
Ling
We met in high school so going back like 10 years?
Jace
We were 16 or 17? It was really just friends of friends.
Ling
Yeah. And then I guess we just started talking, probably online actually, it was very unromantic.
Jace
Yeah, it was when Facebook was new.
Tracy
Oh, pioneers!
Wendy
Did you guys study the same degree in uni? I forget.
Ling
Similar, so we both did law. But I did it with writing.
Jace
Yeah, and I did it with economics, and then I dropped the economics. The double degree, couldn't be bothered with it
Both at UTS?
Tracy
Yeah. Yeah.
Um, can you tell us how I mean, what Cereal for Lunch is and how it came about?
Ling
Sure, it's a bit of a mix of things. I'd say it's kind of become our blog, or like just a space really to share photography, and travel stories. And we've just kind of really embraced like spending more time in nature and slowing down. And so it's really just trying to explore the intersection between natural places and mindfulness. And yeah, we're really quite new to photography so it's also sharing what we're learning as we go.
Tracy
Your photography is so beautiful so the fact that you're saying that you're new to it, I'm like what?
Wendy
How can we get on that level?
Tracy
How did you go from studying law to I guess...this is quite a creative space. Yeah. What was the transition like there?
Ling
Yeah. I guess I've always like had a creative side as well. So I've always liked drawing and painting and photography. Since growing up, it has always been something my parents have done. And my grandparents especially with travel, like all of my memories are of watching their footage and their film photos like when they came back from a trip. And it really started for us when we left uni, and we booked a one way ticket and like travelled for nine months together. And my dad was kind enough to give us like an old camera that we just like didn't know how to use.
Jace
Because this was fresh out of uni. So a couple of years ago now 2018, or something like that. The first time I probably picked up a camera was that year, like, I didn't know what I was doing with photography or anything because I didn't have art or like a creative outlet growing up or anything, it was very much just kind of studying, then you go to do whatever, swimming or something after school - it's not really creative things, just things that your parents kind of put you into. So for me, I have always had an interest in photography, because when you see it often, you're blown away sometimes, see some crazy landscapes or just really beautiful photos and things like that. And you never really think like, "Oh, how am I going to be able to do that?" So that year was a good time for us, when we were travelling, to kind of figure that out for us. It was really good. It was good to try it and stuff. And we just really had no idea what we're doing.
Ling
Like, everything's out of focus. We called my dad and we're like, "I think the camera's broken." And he was like, "This sounds really simple but have you tried switching it between like manual and auto-focus?" I remember being on the phone and like seeing the button for the first time. And I was like oh.... yeah. Because we've just been shooting in manual for six months and wondering why it looks shit.
Jace
Yeah, because I was like, I swear this auto-focus just isn't working and then you see a photo, it's all blurry. And I was like, I don't understand what's going on. Something's going on...
Ling
We had like a big period of trial and error, basically.
Jace
A massive period. And then when we came back, we, we bought a camera. And it was a Sony A7III, which is a completely different operating system. It's a mirrorless camera and that's something that really changed a lot of learning photography for especially me, because I was reading about how things work. Like you read about ISO and aperture and things like that, it's so different when you try and work with it. But the great thing about the mirrorless system is that it has that electronic viewfinder, which actually shows you change in the photo as you're changing the settings and things. So like for us, for for me especially, as like when I'm starting to play with ISO and things, I started to see the difference that would make the photos immediately in front of you, and then that just made like the upskill in learning really quickly for us. Especially anyway, because I have no creative background until about two or three years ago.
Wendy
I think what's like really special about seeing your photos is I personally feel like even though you're talking about the process has been a lot of trial and error, it almost feels like you're also very intentional behind the scenes in terms of like, where you go, when you shoot with and why you shoot as well. So I'm curious to know, I guess, like what are the purpose or values that drive you as a part of like Cereal For Lunch and what keeps you going?
Ling
That's such a nice question. And thanks. I think we've definitely been drawn to very, like dreamy natural places and places that feel quite like immersive and remote.
Jace
Really surreal.
Ling
Yeah and I think, yeah, deserts and just places that look completely different to what we could imagine. I think that's what we tend to go after.
Jace
And I think we've discovered that kind of just naturally, like in that period, where we travelled for nine months, we spent half of it in Europe and half of it in South America. And the difference in those legs, which is so significant. Because in Europe, we were just made mainly hopping from city to city, and we weren't really going out exploring landscapes and things like that so photography was just kind of like, the nice things to see in the city at that point. But then, when we went to South America, a lot of that trip was just based around the landscapes and that was just good.
Ling
I think we just found like, this is what we're just really excited by.
Jace
So excited by that trip. Like that part of the trip was such a different experience to anything and we just wanted more of it. Especially when it went to like the Atacama Desert. There's just insane landscapes just... but like flamingos everywhere. Yeah, and just mountains and crazy lakes and things like that.
Ling
I think we found in those places as well, we couldn't really put the camera down like it became quite, I don't know, just like, integrated into everything. And we were going for longer hikes and spending more time just like being outside. I feel like every time we turned a corner, we were just like, oh, another....this is also very nice. Yeah. So yeah, it became kind of like, just really fun. And I think in terms of like, what the purpose is, I think we started just wanting to capture the feeling of those places, and just the memories of it. And I think since then, like getting back and going into full time work was a bit of an adjustment. And I think photography is still kind of a place to just celebrate, like, really simple things that are happening in nature. It could be like a sunrise or, I don't know, wildlife or literally anything but it's more like we kind of just stop everything else when we're shooting.
Jace
It's a lot about the feeling of that day like, because, especially when we were working in Corporate Law, like the weekends, we would go out to hikes and things like that. It was almost like an escape, it's how we blow off steam.
Ling
This is how we want to be living.
Jace
We want to have that moment with us for as long as possible. So like, we go out and take a photo of what that's like. When I look at our photography, it's like going back to that place again, and having the experience of what it was like to hike that trail, what it's like to feel the sun that day, what it was like to smell the trees.
Tracy
I love that, it's like being in the moment and being really present. Yeah, feeling that in your photography.
Ling
I think that's been quite nice about it. Like, yeah, it's just another way to be more grounded and enjoy it.
Jace
Yeah, so like, for us, the intent is to capture the day. It's not so much that we go somewhere with the intention of, of taking photos and posting later, it's really just like, we go for the, for the experience of what that day will be for us. And then when we get there, there's always gonna be something to take photos of, which is something we've learned over time, is that everything is really beautiful. Realistically, you don't have to go out and find like, top 10, Instagrammable places or anything, you can actually just do like even your local bush trail or something and find something really wonderful about that. And so like, we try and capture that in our photography and share it and kind of encourage people to find the same in their lives. Because, yeah, we know a thing or two about kind of toiling and not seeing, just like not having the fun, I guess.
Wendy
Yeah. I mean, you both spoke about it a little bit. But obviously, I guess coming out of uni, you probably didn't expect to land into something like this and you mentioned like being in corporate law... do you want to talk us through how that journey when? And when you came to the realisation that like you just didn't want to be in that world anymore?
Ling
Sure. I think it's like, it seems like a very linear route, especially compared to like, I was studying writing and that's not linear. But this is like really good opportunities, and very competitive so I think once we both like found ourselves in good jobs, it was kind of like, so secure, that it felt bad to question it in a way because it's like, they only pick 10 people, and then suddenly you're there and you feel like really unqualified. But if you don't like it, it's kind of hard to challenge, such an institution in a way. Like, it kind of became our whole life though, which was what was difficult. So it wasn't just long hours, it was like, very unpredictable hours and I think we both found it quite hard to make plans during the week that didn't revolve around work or work events. And then we were pretty burnt out by the time the week ended. And it really just affected health, everything like that a lot.
Jace
It affected everything. So for me, like when I went into to uni, because I didn't have a creative or kind of like an experiential background, it was really just studying and then you just keep going and going and going. And law is one of those things where it's like, you do your degree, you do your clerkship, you do your grad programme then you're a lawyer, and then you stay long enough to become Senior Associate. And you know, your pay goes higher every single time and it's so obvious and so linear, it's so easy to see what the pathway is there. So like, it is really challenging to like, confront first of all, the idea that you might not actually like it, because you know, for the better part of like 22 years... Sorry, since you start schooling and then you finish university, that's a long time. And then at the end of it, you're like, "Well, I worked all this time and this hard to get this job that 1000s of people have applied for these jobs. And I'm like, one of 30 maybe that year to start in that position." And you're like, you just know that heaps of people would kill to be where you are, and you don't like it.
Ling
Yeah, it's just like, uncomfortable to admit, like, it just sounds pretty selfish, I think. Especially like, for me, with my Mum, working so hard to end up in a corporate place, like working for like $2 a day and like immigrating and not speaking English. Like I felt super selfish to be like, it took you years to build up to this with so much hard work. And then I'm just like, ew.
Jace
Exactly. My Mum studied a double master's degree while working full time. You know, she went through a lot when she immigrated to Australia when she was 19 or something like that. So yeah, there is that part of it as well because you know your parents want what's best for you. They kind of pushed me in the direction of business or because, you know, especially because when you start thinking about like, because so much of their life was like, finding money was really difficult. So like when they see this career path that has guaranteed income, a pretty good income as well, especially at the later time. They're like "This is what's gonna be best for my child." So you know, you didn't really have much of a choice in that respect but also you didn't want to be the person to be like, "I don't want that," because you worked really, really hard to get me into the position for me to be able to have this opportunity. And now I just kind of don't want it.
Tracy
Yeah, it does feel like our generation is quite spoilt for choice now, and then you compare to our parents who worked really hard. It's a really interesting thought or uncomfortable position to be in when you feel like, "Oh, I don't want to be pursuing this path. But I've worked so hard for you to be on that path at the same time."
Jace
Yeah but I mean, at a certain point, for us, it's just kind of like, we had to start really acknowledging what was happening to us by like, forcing ourselves into this position. Like we were working, you know, pretty much, what..8:30am to 9, 10, 11 most nights for a period. And like, sometimes the only time we'd see each other is in the taxi on the way home.
Ling
We would eat dinner at our desk. Not all the time it's like, up and down. Yeah, but that kind of made it hard to just have a life outside of it. Like you kind of needed a reason to not be working which I think we just struggled with a bit because it's like, if we had more time, we'd just be enjoying the week a lot more. And when crazy things did come up that we wanted, then we'd be too tired to do them and it'd just be this like weird resentful cycle of like, "Why did I take this on?" But then it's like, "Why am I sacrificing what I actually enjoy just to sustain this other thing that like, I don't know if I enjoy?"
Jace
Yeah, and I mean, like, you know, people internalise stress in different ways, or like to deal with it in different ways. You spiralled a lot.
Ling
Oh, all the time! Yeah.
Jace
Like, there were a lot of tears and things at that time, and I went inside and became pretty emotionally unavailable. And I think that I wasn't really getting much out of life in those times, because there's just so much of me was dulled out to kind of deal with work, and I didn't recognise it at the time. But that's just something that you know, I think, people working like that, end up doing... you hear about lawyers and bankers with substance abuse problems. You know, fortunately, I didn't go down that path. But I did become someone that wasn't natural.Well, it was such a different person to who I am now. But it's just like, I wasn't experiencing anything.
Tracy
Right...when did the penny drop? Like, when did you go "Yeah, I've had enough"?
Ling
It's funny you mentioned I was spiralling because I definitely was, like very, like outward, pouring out emotion. I think a friend was like, because I was turning it into a bit of a quarter-life crisis. But a friend was like, why don't you just write down like what you actually want and I think it forced me to stop thinking about like - What job should I find? What have I done with my career? Why did I study this? Like, what am I doing? To just like, my list was so simple, it was like, have dinner at home with my parents, and for that not be stressful. Because I'm, like, worried about work, or like, be able to enjoy a hike on the weekend without being burnt out. Like it was very, very simple things. And I think that made me realise like, I'm not actually asking for that much like, I'm turning it into a much bigger life crisis than it is. But realistically, I just want to leave the office and not be sick all the time or not be burnt out. And then I was like, well, if it's that, then that's a manageable decision to make and I don't have to solve what the next thing is. Also, even when we were applying for other jobs, there was like deadlines at midnight that we couldn't meet, because we were still in the office. And I was like, well, I can't even leave. I'd be calling Jase from the bathroom, like, "Can you just submit this? Because I can't, I can't leave." That kind of thing just became pretty apparent that most people don't do this to themselves.
Jace
Yeah. I mean, I think in some ways, COVID was good for that. Because when we went into lockdown, suddenly, we didn't have to be in the office, we can work from home a bit more. Work started slowing down a lot. So suddenly, I've got more time and like I started doing things, like going for a walk around the block and just realising that, oh, I actually really like being outside, like shade, trees, there's so many things. I'm just seeing the same neighbours go for a walk in the sun and they just wave hi, they seem like they were having a good time. Yeah, it's just small, simple like that.
Ling
And I think you did have to realise at a certain point that like, you didn't think you were super miserable, but you weren't fully enjoying everything else and we did kind of have to confront that.
Jace
Yeah. I mean, there was a period of us speaking to a therapist because I think my emotional unavailability was really wearing on you because you had a lot of feelings about it and wanted to know mine and I just wasn't able to go to there yet. I don't know. I didn't know how to because I just spent so much living in a shell. Yeah, just trying to deflect things. So yeah, therapy was good for that. But then like, I think for me, especially it was just like things didn't go as I planned anyway, in the law firm, like I actually wanted to do a certain area of the law, and then they couldn't put me in that team. And then when COVID happened and the work started slowing down a lot, I found that, well, I don't even have pressure at work anymore because I don't have all these hectic deadlines anymore. I don't have so many people breathing down my neck but I still don't want to go to work. Even though my life is a bit better now, I still don't want to show up to work anymore. That's for me was just like, well, clearly, that's telling me something here and to confront this, I don't want to be here anymore and I need to make a change.
Wendy
I feel like everything that you've shared is... firstly, I want to say thank you. Because it's like, such a big thing to have to share and you have to be almost vulnerable within yourself and with others to be able to share such a thing. And I think I feel like a lot of people probably spend 5-10 years in the industry or in their career, before they realise. Yeah, like they want to change. And I always feel like because both of you are almost going through it the same time you had each other, even though you were like dealing with it differently, you shared the experience and realise together that like there's something greater for you beyond an office space. And being in the same place for like, what, more than 12 hours. And I think that's like really encouraging. That's like, why you should be opening up and sharing with others, because you don't realise like what's happening to you until someone else points it out.
Ling
Definitely.
Tracy
Yeah. And you can see that I guess, the contrast, or now, how you talk about being present, enjoying the little things, you can see where that came from and where you started.
Ling
We didn't last very long, either. It's like, way less than a year for me.
Jace
You left like a year before I left?
Ling
I think we've like realised from doing that, we're very conscious of how we want to spend time. And most of the things, you don't need to question, because you're just going about your day and enjoying like, we want to like enjoy life. And it's only when you're kind of forced to think like, what am I sacrificing for this situation?
Jace
Yeah, I mean, for me, like towards the end, like, even though I was finishing at 5, it was all fun...like, my team was nice and stuff. It was just like, I realised that all I was doing was counting down the time. I was just waiting until I got to 5, 5:30 and I can log off without guilt. It's just like, why am I spending 40 hours a week counting?
Tracy
Yeah, so did you guys both quit at the same time?
Ling
It was at different times. We both kind of felt we needed to find another job first. But as I mentioned, there was no time for that. So I got to a point where I was like, I actually don't think I can just keep doing this. I was like, I cannot, done. Luckily, I found something before COVID hit because that could have gone a bit differently. But I liked that I was seeing things that I was more motivated by and so I kind of took that as a sign to like, there will be something, but if I don't have the space to even entertain it, like what am I doing? Like, I can't just wait until that comes up. And then yeah, it was like pretty, maybe six months after...
Jace
I think it was 6 months into your grad program. I can't remember when it was, it was just before it finished.
Ling
Because everyone kept saying you should just finish. And I was like, then it just gets worse, it just keeps going. So yeah, I literally was just like, no more. I think they were asking me like, "Do you want to go into like deals like corporate finance?" And I was just like this C) none of the above.
Tracy
So what does your work week look like now compared to before?
Ling
Yeah, I guess like before we were craving like a 9-5.. We're like we just want a normal routine. But then I was like, why stop at that? I discovered part time, which is great. So I think the week now, we're very conscious of like, I hate the idea of counting down till Friday and being like, oh, it's only Wednesday. I feel like we try to make what we're doing at work as either meaningful or interesting as we can in the, you know, space of working for something else. But also just trying to have balance for our own creative things that were really important. Like, I know they need time or we won't feel like we're ever able to fully enjoy them. And then just I feel like life things like we try to really balance between, it's not just work and non-work. It's like how can we fully integrate our health and being outside as much as possible and having actual quality time together that's not just fitting around work. So I'd say the week now is really, it's great. Because I can go Yum Cha with my grandparents and all.
Jace
It's a lot better. So I mean, like we both pivoted into, like a policy role, government departments. So I mean, like, it's a lot more relaxed in that way, like there's always busy periods and stuff like that but it's so different to what it was, you know, at a firm. It's very different flexible to work in something that you're interested in, I think that is a big part of it for starters.
Ling
Yeah. And a huge, crisis I was having was like thinking how much time I'm putting into work. And I think especially after travelling, and then seeing, like, the impact of climate change as well, I was like, very lost about how to do something about it. And it has been good to find a job that I can at least like contribute in that way to it. So yeah, being interested in it has helped a lot.
Jace
Yeah. It's, it's been really good in that sense. And yet, the flexibility is really good, because we both get flex time now. So it's like if we do ever work overtime, we do get that time, which for us, usually just means taking a day and having a long weekend in the Blue Mountains.
Ling
Like if a shoot comes up, there's kind of no questions asked with work. Like we just take the time, and then it's not stressful anymore. Or you work a half day because want to catch the sunset somewhere. Yeah, it's great. And like, I think for us, the biggest differences is like, before, when we were working in Corporate Law, like a lot of our identity is tied to like just being a lawyer, because that's all you did with your work is all anyone talked about, nobody had hobbies outside of it. And if they did, it's like marathon runner whereas we like watching the moon. It's so different. But I think like now, because we have so much more time to ourselves, and so much more like space to kind of explore what we're actually interested in, like, when we do introduce ourselves to new people now, it's not like, "Oh, I'm, I work in government policies" It's like I do this, but I also am a photographer, I have all these different hobbies. It's also like, much more relaxed.
Tracy
It's much more align to your identity.
Ling
Yeah, yeah. It's not all consuming.
Jace
Yeah, I think it's so different. Because like, now that I think about it like that, when we were lawyers, that identity of being a lawyer, that was given to us purely by reason of working in a law firm, and just the demands of what that needed from you. But whereas now it's like, well, we have all this time and space to explore things and now we can be like a more holistic person, closer to who we actually want to be, what drives us.
Tracy
Yeah, not be defined by your job.
Wendy
Were there any, like pivotal moments, in say, like your career or in creating Cereal For Lunch that has kind of stuck with you now and kind of shapes where you're going?
Ling
I think I mean, getting involved in, like, learning about sustainability and environmental impacts, I think has shaped what we do a lot, because it's not just like wanting to see natural places, it's like, has been very uplifting to be able to support people who also care or doing really interesting things, learning about that.
Jace
Yeah, like we thought about this the other day, but like, when we think about the development of Cereal For Lunch...
Ling
I wish we came up with an actual name, now that everyone is saying it out loud. I'm like, why did we call it this?
Tracy
I think it's cool! It's memorable.
Ling
Like we were thinking about it, we just think about development, like, you know, like we do have, like the really clinical milestones like first time you worked with Kathmandu, or a brand, or the first time we've worked with an accommodation stay and all that kind of stuff. Or like when we bought the camera we bought this year, that changed a lot of the way that we did things. But I think for us, like what we really think of as, like, milestones are like, more in like the personal developments and the way that we kind of try and communicate how we've developed into the brand, like the messaging and everything like that. I think a big part of what we do now is mindfulness and connection to nature. And like when we realised that that was something that really drove us and inspired something in us. Yeah, I think that's a milestone or a pivotal moment where like, now the brand messaging is changing and now the brand messaging is a bit more clear about what we want to put out into the world and what we want to share with people who want to listen. Basically, I think those kinds of things are really, really the pivotal moments for us.
Wendy
Yeah I think what's really nice is just hearing, like you talk about all the things, all these things that you've learned along the way and I guess like all the learnings that you kind of understood through your career change and whatnot, and I can almost visualise all of these coming to fruition in your actual content. So interesting. And I think all our listeners should just like pause and go look at your Instagram, because I think even like the way that you produce, say, like reels or videos, and even the way that you talk about certain topics like sustainability, I feel like that really comes through. And it's like, people don't realise how much thinking but also feeling, like a holistic lens that you've applied in everything that you've created. So I think it's so nice hearing the process because like, I always have kind of respected the work that you both do, but never kind of thought beyond just what I saw on the screen.
Ling
Yeah it's really nice to hear that because I think like, we're really just extending very vague intuitions and vague feelings. But it's nice to know what actually like, yeah, gets across.
Jace
Yeah for a period of time, like we weren't so thoughtful about it, I guess you could say like, we did just enjoy taking photos. There was a period of time, we were just doing kind of like what we thought other people on the platform. Like, sometimes you would just take certain types of photos and put it up and not really think too much about, what it could mean for someone or what it could inspire in people. But as we like, as Ling said, like, as we learn more and more about the world around us, and about sustainability, and biodiversity and mindfulness, we get really excited about that and we want to share that. And we want to reflect that more in how our photography looks like and what our messaging is. That's really just something that we're working on more and more, and kind of like finding our own voice and settling into it. And having that be the the main, like, messaging, I guess, coming out of kind of our work.
Tracy
Yeah. How does sustainability come to play in your content? Like in travelling? How does that play a role?
Ling
Yeah, I guess. I mean, it's something I'm motivated by just because everything's kind of f**ked. I think it's like we went from being a bit disillusioned about how to address climate change, like just feeling lost, like, we were just overwhelmed. Yeah, "I shouldn't do anything because everything's terrible" to just trying to find like, well, what actually can we do? And I think that came from talking to people who were taking steps to do that. So whether people were like, using recycled materials or building like eco huts, and like, regenerative practices, things that we didn't really know about, I think something that was nice was realising like, we don't actually have to know about that or have a solution but other people are doing little things everywhere. And I think it kind of came across quite naturally, because we were reaching out to people doing those things and wanting to understand what the brand was, or their product or what they've built. And then I think there's just a huge opportunity and sharing that, it helps them to get recognised for what they're doing, and also helps other people and it all just kind of accumulates. So yeah, it's come about really naturally, I think, and the people who reach out to us for photography, I think they also really appreciate how we capture nature or stays or whatever it might be. So it just works really well together, like it feels very aligned.
Jace
Yeah, I mean, really, quite simplistically. It's just like, everything we like is something in nature and we just wanted to be around. Other people can find the same experiences in the enthusiasm that we have for it. I mean, that's basically it really simple. Yeah, in a nutshell but yeah, that's very true. I think a lot of people that we've worked with have commented that they appreciate our enthusiasm for sustainability and biodiversity because they have the same. And I think like for us, for me, especially like, I really enjoy learning about other people's passions, and when people's passion to really give back into the world, I think that's just a really exciting and cool thing to learn about and find, like information about and share.
Ling
Yeah, it's been nice to capture.
Tracy
Has there been like a project or a job that you've worked on that's been a highlight?
Ling
I think accommodation has been really cool, because the brief is like, go and experience it and capture it how you would and I'm like, that sounds like the best job, that sounds so fun. And I think it has a bit more time to learn from people like usually, if we're staying at someone's place, and they can actually, like, show us what they're doing. I feel like that's when we really see like how much people care about things. If they're showing us the birds because they planted a tree 20 years ago, and then how they've actually managed to like transform an environment. That's been really cool.
Jace
Yeah, certainly, the most recent one was Kestrel Nest, and that was a few months ago, just around the Wagga Wagga area. But that was really nice. It was on a, like, a huge farm property where like a third of it was used for farming and two thirds of it was for conservation efforts. And then, like there was a really nice eco hut there. It was like self sustaining, solar powered, two water tanks and everything completely off grid, like it was large glass windows everywhere. So you're waking up with the sun and setting and going to sleep with it setting and everything like it was really, really surreal. And yeah, she just said like, the brief is essentially just like live in it, experience what it's like to live like that and just kind of capture it to the best of our ability.
Tracy
I was like, "Oh, okay." We can do that.
Jace
She gave us a like a tour of the farm and showed us like, what a lot of the sustainable activities they do, like they did regenerative farming there. So they showed us how they would kind of achieve that and they showed us like all these plant corridors they planted, which helps all these micro birds and micro bats and things like that survive because they need to hop from tree to tree.
Ling
Apparently like that particular woodland is like one of the rarest habitats. So it's like if they weren't doing this like, it's the only kind of pocket that's left.
Jace
All those ecosystems collapse if they aren't there anymore.
Ling
So it was just kind of cool to see it, I think. Yeah. And then we just got to like, shoot all day.
Jace
Yeah, it's like it's small scale relative to like, how much land there is in the world but it's really cool to see it happen. And it's cool, because you can see it, just like this corridor of trees, is actually sustaining an entire ecosystem of birds.
Wendy
Are these collaborations? Well, I want to call them collaborations or people that you obviously want to get to know better and know what their process is like. Is that how you determine like, what you travel to next? Or is it like a thought process behind it?
Ling
No, we're very, very chaotic. That definitely helps us to decide where to travel to next because there's like a reason. I think when we're planning our own trips, we're like so indecisive.
Jace
We'll spend months thinking of like...
Ling
All the possibilities or even in New South Wales, like all the places. Yeah, it's kind of very last minute, but I think we prioritise like natural places that you can kind of road trip or hike a lot.
Tracy
How has COVID impacted that?
Ling
Yeah. I mean, it's changed everything for everyone. I think it's definitely impacted travelling. Yeah. For us, like, I mean, luckily, we travelled a lot before it all locked down, it's become more of an imperative to like, get my grandparents back to China than like a holiday. I think for photography, we have always seen that everything's beautiful. And then this really forced us to be like, "Oh, everything within the 5km is also beautiful."
Jace
In a sense, because we couldn't go overseas, at least it kind of forced us to explore Australia a bit more, which I've always wanted to do, and we just kind of never had the right opportunity to do it.
Tracy
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I feel like we've only started travelling New South Wales where it was because of the lockdown. Otherwise, we'd be overseas.
Ling
It's so bad to say.
Tracy
It's always like, it's always gonna be there.
Ling
It's actually amazing, like, there's so many places. But yeah, I think before COVID, we did kind of question like, when people started looking at photos, it was a bit of like, why would people be following our holiday? Like, I don't really know. And I think because then when everything was so closed, I really questioned that. I was like, why would someone be watching what we're doing in like in Kiama when there's going to be two years of no one coming here? But I think it made us think a bit more about like, it's not where we're travelling to, but like, why and what we're getting from it. And I think we probably started sharing that a bit more, even though it feels a bit more personal than the actual, like, place.
Jace
I guess we could kind of think of it now as more of a photo journal, if that makes sense. Like we're kind of journaling our experience and sharing that publicly is the best way to kind of think about it, I guess.
Wendy
I was just thinking about, obviously, because I'm a really visual person, I just keep going back to like photos and stuff that you've posted, but it goes to show that being within constraints also brings out like a creativity within you and I feel like at one point I think when it was a 5km lockdown, you guys were in separate households. And you were like watching the moon together, which I think is like, amazing, because you never think to kind of share that experience, even though you're in two separate locations. Yeah,
Ling
Yeah, it was like a supermoon and then I think we got really obsessed with like the moon phases.
Wendy
Yeah. Well, I feel like if you fall into so many of these things, like accidentally. But you obviously write as well like blog pieces as well to go with your photography. What's the creative process behind deciding like whether you create a video versus like a blog piece versus like just shooting pictures?
Ling
Like it makes it sound like we have more of a plan than we do.
Tracy
You seem very put together, at least from an external perspective.
Ling
I think we have like a very diffused interests and just kind of lots of different interest like, video is like very new. I don't think I've really thought too much beyond "I'll try it". The blog we started because I think we wanted to enter a competition and you needed a blog. So I was like, oh, we'll make a blog then. I think we probably need to start thinking about a bit more like, it all relates, but the blog's more I guess, the practical like things to help people get to places.
Jace
Yeah, that started off way more simply that like, I was just looking for information about things, but like things for travel that people should know, when they're trying to do something and I couldn't find it. So it's like, well, we're gonna go and live through it so we might as well put it out there, so that someone who was looking for it can find it one day, maybe. Yeah, so that's, that was like, quite simply, how the blog kind of and we could do a bit more work on that.
Ling
And then photos, I guess, we're always just carrying the camera. Video does take more thought, because you can't really just record everything and expect it to be cohesive.
Jace
Because I think photography for us was really kind of simple. Because, like, you know, you go there, you're in the moment, you kind of see what takes your breath away, and you take a photo of it from that point. We kind of work on it in the moment in that way. Whereas with video, I think, like you can still do it that way. But it needs a storyline, you need to kind of storyboard it a bit more.
Ling
But I think that's something that put us off trying it for a while was I was like watching people with all these really intense like editing and like masking, and I was like, I don't know how to do that. And it's like, seems really polished. And I think we've recently realised like, we should just take the same approach, as we do with photography, which is like, what's the most simple story? And recently, I was like, a simple story is just like, we love the sun. And then so we thought, what if we just filmed like, one day, like if we had one day with no distractions in nature, and we ended up kind of capturing like a meteor shower and a sunrise and like, sand dunes. And it was like there's actually a story and something very simple.
Jace
Yeah, piecing it together, it's still a little bit difficult sometimes, because you don't, you don't necessarily know how each frame leads to each other. So it's still a work in progress, kind of a learning experience for both of us to kind of pick up.
Tracy
It sounds like there's a lot of experimentation for you guys to like to get to this point. Like photography, editing, video recording everything. What advice would you have for people who want to get into this creative field?
Ling
That's a tricky one. Because we're like figuring it out. I think like not having goals can sometimes help. Like, it isn't linear and that can be kind of off putting, because you're like, "What do I do? Like, where do I start? And where is it going?" But it's like, if you can actually just create without expecting anything, or without trying to make it into something, it is a lot easier. Like, if you're just going off what you enjoy, then that's kind of all you need to do, really.
I would say just have like an open mind and try not to compare yourself with other people. Like, I didn't pick up a camera until 2019. So like three years ago, basically. And like, a big part of that now is because I would always see like, what really good photography other people put out there. And I'd be like, "Well, I'm never gonna be able to do that. Because I don't know how a camera works. What an ISO is, and I don't know how manual focus works." Like I was always put off by like, comparing really good photographers to my shitty photos.
Tracy
Yeah...like, how can I get there?
Jace
I don't see how I can get to that.
Ling
I think the biggest thing for you is like, it's kind of taught us that you could learn like literally anything. Yeah. And I was always very put off by like, I know, the things I'm good at and I know what I don't know, and like that shouldn't be a barrier. It should just be an opportunity to learn the other thing. But yeah, it's a process.
Jace
Once you take comparison out of it, you just kind of start looking at things of like a learning opportunity. Yeah, like it really becomes quite a different thing to pick up, especially photography.
Ling
You literally can learn it.
Jace
Yeah, I think photography is really accessible to everybody. And like even now, like, I don't really know the best things about like how aperture works, or anything like that. But I can, like when I go somewhere, I understand things like scale, or like things like, how I want the photo to come out in the end. It's because for me, it's about capturing the moment. I mean, like it's not about like, a goal, the end product, the aperture or whatever, or the the setting that I'm using, it's really about the kind of feeling I'm trying to capture. So it just becomes so much more, I guess easier for me to just go out there and do something with photography.
Tracy
You're not thinking about all those other factors.
Jace
Yeah I'm not thinking about like, how is this going to compare to my favourite photographers? Yeah, I'm not thinking about that. It's not the point of me being out there. So I would just say, yeah, really keeping an open mind is really good. Yeah. The other point about, like kind of a tip for people who want to start photography, especially if they want to stop posting that on Instagram or TikTok, or whatever it's like, I think you really have to enjoy the art that you're making. Like, I think something that we did that was kind of limiting at this time is we tried to do a lot of things that other people were doing, because we thought that that's what you meant to do. But then you kind of fall out of love of what you're creating, basically, if that makes sense. So I think it's really important that whatever you do you really enjoy liking, and you actually like what you're producing.
Wendy
Otherwise it feel like it's a chore, right?
Tracy
Yeah. Rather than thinking about what people want, it's like, what do you enjoy?
Jace
Yeah, yeah. Because then the other thing is like, you don't want to grow out of something that you're not tied to, because then you just kind of have this thing you might even resent one day because of the kind of photography that you have to do isn't actually aligned to what you personally like doing. And sometimes you see that, like, sometimes you see a lot of photographers start a whole second page, because they're like, "Oh, I'm actually really interested in portrait photography. Landscapes took off, and that's what I have to do for work now." But yeah, it can be limiting in that sense.
Ling
But I think like, but with keeping out other jobs in policy, that's something that supports being a bit more choosy with photography, like, it can be really intentional and not just have to, like, take any job, or... you know what I mean?
Jace
So I'd say don't jump on, whatever the most recent thing is, because that's kind of really annoying to keep up with, and annoying to make, but then something that you might not necessarily even like, so don't waste your time on that. Just use your time productively to like, really kind of figure out what you like, and just focus on that.
Wendy
Yeah, I love that.
Ling
Also, like we had to like unlearn a lot of things from corporate, because if you're in an environment where everything's like profitable, or non profitable, or like, productive or non productive. I think I started... which I didn't do before law, but I think I started thinking of creative things like how will I turn this into a business? Or like, everyone's like, are you going there for an Instagram photo? And I'd be like, no...
Jace
No I just want to do the hike.
Tracy
Yeah. It's like when you have a side hustle with it, like so you're gonna make money from it, you're gonna sell that?
Ling
And I think like, because we had to log every six minutes as like, billable, non billable,
Wendy
Six minutes? Oh my gosh.
Ling
Six minutes, every six minutes! Don't even go to the bathroom or we have to stop your clock. I think like, even though I didn't think like that, before, it became so ingrained to the point that at some level, I was always thinking about like, well, where will this go? How will I monetise it? And I literally have to just like, shut that down. And be like, you never thought like this before, just enjoy the thing. But I think when starting, there could be a lot of like, self imposed or like limiting thought processes that make a barrier to actually just doing something.
Tracy
It's like the pressure of like, the first time you do it needs to be good. Otherwise, why? Why am I doing? Yeah, which is the self doubt.
Ling
It's so toxic.
Jace
No, first time you do anything is always going to be bad.
Tracy
You just have to accept it!
Jace
And it's fine and it'll be fun in a year's time when you look at the first thing you ever did. Yeah, like it'll just be a great time when you actually look back on it.
Wendy
Yeah, I feel like if I can relate, because I look back on like my uni projects and the stuff that I did in first year is like completely terrible. But I think it goes to the point where you're saying, like, when you work on something for like, three years or multiple years, you don't realise how far you've come until you've like you look back at the things you produce the first time and I feel like that's super rewarding. But I'm really curious about how you guys kind of, I guess, centre yourselves, because I feel like travelling and shooting is really tiring and you can always get like lost in the moment and you're like, go go go and like try to hustle for the next thing. How do you kind of balance out or manage that?
Ling
I guess we kind of mentioned before, like, I don't feel like we've ever gone somewhere to shoot. I guess it might be different if say we're shooting for a client, there is a bit more pressure because we want to like give them something good. And I think to not make that stressful, we just have to plan a little bit better. Like, if we need to provide 50 images, we'll think about what we're going to do. But at the same time, it's so integrated into like, our day that like we're still hiking 14km before we even shoot. And so I think there's a lot of time around shooting but I think that's the only time where it's a little bit more focused on shooting. In general, it's super relaxed because I don't think I don't think the photography is like detracting from our experience of the place at all or we wouldn't be doing it, I don't think.
Jace
Yeah, it really isn't like I don't think we have any any struggles with like being in the moment when we're taking a photo because, like, when we're there, the reason I want to take the photos is because I'm in the moment. So it's not like I'm there to create a moment, I'm there because the moment's there and I'm going to try and capture it so that I can look back at this photo, and be back in this moment at one point in time and in the future. So we've never really had a problem with that.
Ling
I think so. I think if it was to become like, stressful, we probably just wouldn't do it. Because yeah, I don't know.
Jace
Yeah, we don't need stress. Yeah.
Ling
We have done the stress.
Jace
I mean, like, when I think back to our most recent shot at Kestrel Nest, like, it was stressful in this in the sense that, like, we just want to do a good job and we felt like, you know... I mean, we obviously had a brief and we had to get certain amount of images and stories and whatever.
Ling
It was actually unlimited, they were like, do whatever you want. And I think that was actually more pressure because I was just like, do whatever I want? I want so many things like now the moon's up... and I have to get..there's so many things
Jace
The stress just became like, well, there's so many ideas I've got around here, I want to take all these photos and I'm losing daylight.
Ling
But it's like not a real stress at the same time. So yeah, it's self imposed, because we're like, excited to capture something. It's also kind of like what was saying when we first got here. Like, you might feel stressed putting together something you're doing, but like, I don't think anyone actually sees that side.
Tracy
Yeah they don't see it.
Ling
It's very internal, like, I just want to do well. That's a very small part of our photography, I guess. Like we don't actually do client stuff that often. Yeah, I mean, it's mostly just like us on the hike.
Jace
Yeah, like, we're gonna do the hike anyway so we have a camera with us. It's like, it's very much pretty free. I think with the client work and the stress that come with it, sometimes you forget that like, the reason the client has wanted to work with you is because they already like your content, your photography.
Ling
I truly forget that.
Jace
Yeah. Like you truly forget that they already like what you're doing and they trust you to just do you're doing already.
Ling
Especially with travel photography, because it's like people who said they actually just want us to enjoy it and capture because they like the way we've enjoyed other things. I'm like, that is such a low bar. You enjoy this thing, so please enjoy our thing now.
Jace
I guess it's just a difference in professionalism, when like, you start doing these creative things, like the, the thing that attracts clients is the creative voice and that's really particular to you. And like, I guess maybe it's just trauma from being a lawyer, but like to just have this, like this idea of what, what you should be doing.
Ling
Like hat is successful and what is like... yeah.
Jace
Like when clients start coming, like you take this really clinical mindset to it sometimes, which does add that stress, but I think like calming it down and just recognising them, like they want you to be creative.
Ling
They want you to use the bath, it is a very low stress. Please use the bath at sunset and help yourself, it's not a real stress.
Tracy
Yeah, well, then on the flip side, what is the highlight of doing Cereal For Lunch?
Ling
Oh, I don't know. I mean, we just want to like, sounds really cheesy... I was gonna say we would just want to spend time together.
Tracy
Awww.
Jace
Our love languages are quality time! That is a really big highlight is like spending time with each other.
Ling
Just like seeing what you enjoy and what you see and like, that's probably it.
Jace
Yeah, I mean, learning lots of things about the world and what people are doing, is also a really big highlight. Like, I think you hear about the interesting things people are doing, like maybe one every other 100 ideas that people have. You only thing to hear about the big things that people are doing. You never really hear about the small scale things that people are doing. We learn a lot about a lot of things, basically and I think that's a really big highlight for me, it's just learning so much more about the world around us.
Wendy
Yeah. On top of that, how's your relationship changed? Like, obviously, you talked about the fact that you handled the stress differently, and obviously took a toll on your relationship, but in doing Cereal For Lunch, how has that changed you both and the relationship you share?
Ling
That's a nice question. Um, it's like definitely an extension of us. Like we're not really trying to do anything separate to us. I think I've definitely like it's been interesting to see how we approach things differently for sure. Yeah, like, I definitely have learned to try and learn things more, because I think I started creative things young and so the things I've got really good at, I just knew I could do them. And I would say really weird things like I can draw, but I don't know how I can't paint, but I literally just never tried. And I think because you started creative things very recently, it's actually just been like a good reminder, like, it's been nice to watch you learn how to do them without thinking too much. And having that period of being like, oh, but I'm bad at it, but it doesn't really matter.
Jace
Yeah, yeah. Well, that was that period where I thought I was bad at it.
Ling
But I was like, wow, because I didn't even try, you know.
Wendy
So worked out well. I feel like he has complement each other really well, in how, like, I guess what you bring to the creative process, how you challenge each other and just the way that you talked about things today. I feel like, I mean, our viewers can't see this, but I feel like you guys like look at each other and you have brainwaves going on and seeing that, it's really nice to see that and hear how well you guys complement each other.
Ling
Have you learnt anything from working with me?
Jace
Yeah I've been working on this telepathy and everything. I mean, I think it's made us a lot closer, like even more closer over time, though. Like, I know, it's really cheesy, our love language is quality time and like having so much quality time together, it gives us so much more time to learn more about each other and find the things that excite each other and find a lot of joy in that. I get a lot of joy out of seeing other people really happy. Like, I find that really, really like exciting and enthusiastic thing for me and like when I see you really happy, that makes me really happy. But like learning about that is really good, in that sense, and I think that's been so much closer, because we're just constantly doing things to make each other happy.
Ling
I think it's also like made us more open to possibilities. Like rather than just being like, "Oh, this is our job title. And we did uni and now we're in this thing and we're just going to do that." I think because this is so open ended, it's almost like forced us to be like literally nothing matters, so we can just do whatever, it's fine.
Wendy
I feel like you guys just have, not figured it all out, but in such a short amount of time, you've really shifted your perspective on just like life in general. But obviously, I'm sure there's like a lot more kind of goals for Cereal For Lunch. So like, what's next? What can we expect?
Ling
Oh, no, we don't have any plans.
Tracy
That's the theme.
Wendy
Yeah that's the vibe. It's worked out so well.
Jace
We don't really have plans for it but it's like we have travel plans, you know? And that's obviously going to be more photography and videography.
Ling
What's on the bucket list?
Jace
We've got New Zealand coming up again, going back to South Island in October, November. So that'll be really fun.
Ling
I think we'd like to shoot more and been in nature more because New Zealand was the last place we went before COVID. Yeah I think it's so pretty.
Jace
It'll also be the first overseas place after COVID.
Ling
Maybe our plan is to come up with a plan.
Tracy
Anything you want to learn?
Ling
I think I want to keep editing videos, I just find it really immersive, so much to do. That would be really good.
Jace
Yeah, I mean, there are like, you have ideas for like. For example, like, you know, jewellery series named after, like, really pretty places in the world.
Ling
That was awhile ago....I think I would like to make a journal with my sister, that kind of combines a lot of things. I think because art draws on nature, but also like intuitive things, and just make a bit more of a space. Because I think like, I don't know, like we were saying before, like when you don't really know what you're putting out but then people respond to it. Like one thing that's been nice is other people saying that trying to find balance, I guess, and maybe not knowing how. And I think because that's been such a like introspective process for us and has required like making a lot of changes, it would be nice to make a little space for people to do that.
Tracy
Yeah I love that, I feel like people always ask like, how do I balance my life? Like how do I manage burnout? Like, what advice would you to give for people who are in a situation where they feel burnt out and feel stuck?
Ling
It's hard. I think like, recognising that the reason you're burnt out isn't actually negative, like it can feel negative because you're like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know like what's meaningful, or like, why can't I keep up with this? But like, that's actually coming from a very positive place like maybe you actually just want to be doing something more meaningful or maybe you are just tired. Like, it's not necessarily you and it can be the environment is too much. And I think like that was our biggest realisation was not trying to force like, "Oh, we have to just like fit this thing." And maybe the thing's not good, like maybe it's the thing and not you, and you actually just want to have more time to like, see your family or be creative or whatever it is, but that thing isn't the negative thing. Like, that's the good thing that you need to keep, I think.
Jace
Yeah, I mean, I was just say, find something that you like doing it just do it more.
Ling
Yeah but like, it's easier said than done.
Jace
Yeah. But I mean, we're talking about, in terms of like, managing burnout. It's just like finding something that's a bit therapeutic in that way. And the thing for a lot of people is like, it could be something like exercise could be something like going for hikes, it could be something like photography, if that really is something that, you know, helps you manage your burnout, it's like just putting a bit more positivity back into your life, that really does help. It helped me over time, especially kind of helps me dig myself out of like, the emotional hole I put myself in, because it was a deep hole. It brings you back to the surface, basically, so that, you know, you're not constantly just drained of energy and everything. Because I think, even if your thing is exercise, even that that takes energy, it gives you so much more energy back because of how much you get out of it, and how fulfilled you feel after it. So I think like, just start small and simple. Find something that you like.
Ling
And you can't have time for it, then you need to kill the other thing.
Wendy
Like you need to make time.
Ling
Like for us, it was our jobs, it could be something else. But if, like realistically, if your job is just consuming everything, it's not you, it's your job. And like, it's annoying to admit, but it's like maybe you need to leave the job.
Jace
I mean, like that thing that you find that gives you energy again, you don't have to make anything out of it. You can just do it because you like it as well.
Ling
It doesn't have to solve the other thing. I sometimes felt like our photography had to. I was like, oh, if we enjoy doing that, we have to somehow make that replace the thing we don't enjoy, which is not true. Like, it doesn't have to be the solution to it, you just need to actually have time to enjoy it.
Wendy
Yeah I have to agree in the sense that when you're so busy, or you're like so swamped under work, it's so easy to forget, what are all the other things that you actually enjoy in life, they give you energy, right? And I had a misconception coming into this episode that you have both kind of like left law, and we’re just kind of doing it here and there, but not still working in it. But it's almost like you haven't made that your narrative or your identity, what you carry, but it's almost like these are two things that are working, side by side, one informs the other and vice versa. So that's been really like lovely to hear and like learn, as well as like a friend of yours as well, and being able to kind of talk about and unpack it a little bit.
Jace
And then the other thing I would say is, eventually when you get the courage pivot...
Ling
Get out, don't think about it so much, just do it.
Jace
Because like, we left Corporate Law, but we both moved into policy that still works really closely with the law, it's just a different way of doing it. B I think something that really drove us nuts when we were in law is that people will always say like, I don't know what else I'd do if it wasn't for this.
Ling
You just go home and sit on your couch, you don't need to do anything.
Jace
There so many lawyers out there who are just like absolutely miserable what they're doing, and they're just like, but I wouldn't know what else to do. When you're staring down that path, that's like so discouraging. But I think you just forget that you do have skills and they're not strictly what you need.
Tracy
It's not black and white right?
Jace
Yeah. So I think like once you find that energy and find a bit of uplifting energy in your life, make that choice to fit it, or like move somewhere that you think you will be better because that's a really big, important part of it. And something that we've both gotten a lot out of.
Ling
Just like changing.
Tracy
I like the word pivot, because it's not so scary as like, completely just jumping ships or whatever.
Jace
Yeah. And then the first time you do it, it becomes so much more like... it's way less intense. Oh yeah, and if you don't like this one, you just pivot again. I think because the narrative there was always like, "Oh, so and so used to be a Corporate lawyer, but now they are a baker!" Like, you have to just like have, you know, you're not like living your life. You have to like, be something.
Wendy
I feel like that's a really nice note to like, leave everyone on with like a bit of wisdom from you both. As you know, well, I hope you know, in our episodes, we do like a little segment at the end, called Dinner Table Questions. So we've got three for you.
Tracy
Just like three fun questions!
Wendy
Obviously no right or wrong answers. The first is, if you could live in any country for six months, where would it be?
Ling
We're so indecisive. That's the question.
Jace
Yeah, because, I think we want to do that though.
Ling
Yeah, who knows?
Wendy
Yeah, this is the plan now.
Ling
Honestly, anywhere, it's hard for us.
Jace
I think the leading countries at the moment are like Germany or the Netherlands or something, and then there's potentially South America because...
Ling
Honestly, he's gonna keep like... there's the whole world.
Jace
You pick a place right now.
Tracy
Yeah, right now, if we're gonna give you a ticket, go tomorrow, you pick a place.
Ling
We'll spend until tomorrow deciding.
Jace
Just do it, pick one place.
Ling
I'd actually like to live in China and really properly try to the language. Yeah, that would be really cool. Yeah. Okay. see you there when they open.
Tracy
The next one, if you could have anyone as a dinner guest, who would you have over? Dead or alive.
Wendy
Could be famous, not famous.
Ling
It's tough. Maybe my grandpa? He's passed away.
Jace
Yeah, your Grandpa didn't really get to see anything we've done.
Wendy
What about you, Jase?
Jace
I could our grandpa's because my grandfather also passed away but he passed away when I was 14.
Ling
But he grew up with him in China.
Jace
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So when I was born, but because my parents were working so hard, and my Mum was studying and everything. I grew up with my grandparents in China until I was four years old, and then came over to Australia. So yeah, I mean, my first language at that point was Mandarin and then when I moved to Australia, I spent all this time learning English and then the kids at school bully me because I spoke Mandarin. So I forgot Mandarin as a language basically. Like I still understand it, but I can't speak it.
Ling
Oh no, if you invite him to dinner, he'll be like what happened to you?
Jace
Yeah, it was a pretty big communication barrier for a long time. But I'm assuming that if he's coming back from the dead...
Tracy
You'll be able to communicate
Wendy
Yeah, anything is possible in this realm and in this episode. All right. Last question. Who do you think you would have been in a past life?
Ling
Oh, my gosh, we, we heard about our north node and that's like where you're heading, like what your purpose is. And your south is like where you used to be in past lives? Apparently, for both of us, our past lives are really focused on status and wealth and they're not the things that are going to bring us to fulfilment now. And the things that will fulfil us are like creativity and spirituality. And I was like, that actually makes sense.
Wendy
Where did you find this out?
Ling
On YouTube?
Jace
On Astrology.com
Ling
Well, apparently, like if we were a bug or something, they were really focused on, like, hustling til they got, like, recognised for it. And now we're like, we don't need that, that's not going to make us happy which is true. That's true.
Wendy
Well, that wraps up the episode. Thank you both so much for travelling all this way to my little apartment. But also, it's been so nice. seen both of you after, I feel like what's been four or five years?
Ling
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Wendy
Yeah. And it's amazing that this is what has brought us together.
Tracy
And it's so love t meet you both! The energy that you've given in this episode is like what I get when I look at your Instagram, I feel like zen and like, you know, very at peace when I'm talking to you guys.
Ling
Thanks! Even starting the podcast, because it's so nice to have Asian representation in creative places. And I loved like, even the name like it's a whole invitation, which is so beautiful.
Tracy
Aw thank you!
Wendy
Yeah, well, I'm sure this definitely won't be the last time but thank you so much again and until the next ep! Bye.