Money On Our Minds
EPISODE 19 — 22 JULY 2022
“What how what really helped was first dealing with my mindset, like not speaking as if I don’t have money, catching myself when I’m saying I’m poor, saying that I don’t know anything about investments, I don’t know anything about mortgage, I don’t know anything about savings. I could have been like, “That’s too scary. And I’m never gonna be able to know.” So that’s catching myself going, “Actually, that’s a fixed mindset, you can actually grow in this area,” and then taking baby steps to learn one step at a time and now money doesn’t feel scary to me anymore.”
ABOUT THE EP
Let's get comfortable with the uncomfortable, and let's talk money. Growing up with immigrant parents, our relationship with money has been interesting and is ever-evolving. We talk about our attitudes and emotions towards money, where our money anxiety stems from, and the ongoing pursuit of financial independence.
THE DETAILS
Our relationship with money
The symbolism of money in Asian culture
Recognising money anxiety
Becoming financially independent
Financial literacy as an ongoing journey
REFERENCES & RESOURCES
- 'Generation gap: ensuring a fair go for younger Australians' - Grattan Institute Report, 2019.
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Tracy
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast.
Wendy
Hellooooo! Thought I might try something different, you know?
Tracy
It is a very bright sunny day today, is it winter yet? Yeah, I don't even know. Yes, it is. Winter. So surprisingly, we have a 21 degree day. Sunny, beautiful day.
Wendy
It's gonna be cold again next week, though.
Tracy
Yeah, but today, the vibes are immaculate.
Wendy
Amazing.
Tracy
Today we're gonna be talking about money, everyone's favourite topic. We're gonna be talking about the importance of money in the Asian Australian context, how money has impacted our lives growing up and what it means for us and our current financial situation as second gen immigrants.
Wendy
Why did you laugh?
Tracy
Sorry I laughed because I was like, "Oh, are we gonna give them our dollar value?"
Wendy
What are we worth?
Tracy
What are we worth? Zero?
Before we get into the detail, I'm curious to know, Tracy, what are your thoughts on money overall before we deep dive?
Um, I think for me, money has been a constant in my life. Growing up with migrant parents, I think money has always been a big topic of discussion. Since I remember, it has not always been a positive thing. Actually, most of the time, it's been a negative thing. I think money has always been the root of our family problems and arguments. So I think growing up, I've always had this kind of tension with money in terms of, I feel like I don't have enough of it. I feel like I really want financial freedom. But now growing up, I think I have a better relationship with money. So I think it's an up and down journey that I've had with money. What about you?
Wendy
Yeah, I think very similar in a lot of senses, I think I've seen it, you know, bring a lot of stress and anxiety to families, not just my own, but like other people that I know. And so, in seeing that, I feel like it's not always had a positive connotation whenever I think about it. It's kind of led me to shy away from it, here and there. But, you know, in getting my own place, and kind of growing up and also with like your career, you need to care about it a lot more. But I think my, what would you call it? My "mantra" around money would be to live comfortably, but not being too frugal about things, but also be like, responsible in the decisions that I make.
Tracy
Yeah, I think money in Asian culture is like a sensitive topic and it can be an uncomfortable topic. I feel like it's not really something people talk about in public, or maybe in Western cultures, people are very open about talking about money. It's very interesting.
Wendy
Yeah. So let's talk about why it is so important in the Asian Australian context. When people think about Asians, they think that we're really frugal so I want to kind of uncover why that is. And I think there's a lot of different reasons. So thinking about money, it's not just like a tool of exchange but I think for my parents anyway, it's like the result of hard work, and a guarantee for a more successful and sustainable future. So I think for a lot of families, it is all about like hustling for that financial freedom. But with that said, I also feel like what marks financial freedom, you know, it feels like it's an endless goal to have and you just get more and more hungry for it. But in addition to that, I feel like savings or having disposable income is making sure that there's always a Plan B, especially if things go wrong or, you know, in the face of adversity and uncertainty, having money almost makes it feel like it's okay. So I think for our parents, specifically, being able to like move to Australia, always started with money so if you come from a family that was really well off, there was more of a chance that you'd be able to migrate to another country, right? And that was the situation for Vietnam, from my understanding anyway. And I feel like in Vietnam currently, because my Mum's family is still there, like, money is still such a big topic. You always see families in, in and around Cabramatta, always sending money back to their families, right? And it's just a constant topic and it stresses me out when I hear my Mum talk about it but that's their reality. Whereas I think when our parents came to Australia, they had to start from nothing, essentially.
Tracy
Yeah, I think when you don't have a lot of money, then every dollar actually matters and counts which is why, potentially, there's so much stress around it as well. Like every time you spend money you're like, "Oh, this could have gone here or this could have gone there." You know, it's money that you can actually see going in and out of your bank, if you don't have a lot of as well.
Wendy
Yeah and I feel like our parents worked so hard like day-to-day just to save up every dollar because they, for me anyway, they want to kind of build a future for you so that you can be comfortable. And also, they will have that income to help you celebrate the bigger milestones. So I know that in families, Asian families anyway, if a child is getting married, a parent would kind of pay for part of the wedding or if a child is also buying a place they would buy an appliance or gift something that's quite grand. And it's kind of like moments like that, where I think that's what like our parents are saving towards, at this age anyway. But also when we were growing up, you know, that's going into tutoring and all that kind of stuff. It's like investing in your child's future.
Tracy
Yeah, I feel like it's, they're proud not because they have a lot of money, but it's what the money can let them do. Yeah, and also how far they can stretch that money, if that makes sense. Yes, Asians are cheap, Asians are frugal, but it's almost like we take pride in being able to like stretch a dollar really far.
Wendy
Yeah, for sure. When I was doing more research around this, there was obviously a lot of information around like Asian American families, but I think a lot of it translates to Australia as well. In one of the articles that I read, they framed it as like, frugality as a way of life for maximum fulfilment. So it's like you being frugal now, but then it maximises the amount of opportunities you can have. But also, if you think about how we go about being frugal, things like haggling at the market or shopping around for the cheapest price, my parents still do that and you never take the first option at it's face value.
Tracy
When you buy something, you have to check everything to make sure there's no flaws or errors in it, just to make sure that you're getting your money's worth as well.
Wendy
Yeah. And also like, buying in bulk.
Tracy
Hmm, yeah. Tissue paper.
Wendy
Toilet paper. I still don't get that to this day.
Tracy
Well, my Mum has a thing where anytime she sees something on sale, like half price at Woolworths, she'll stock up, even though even if we don't need that item. Because it's such a discounted item, she's like we've gotta get it. But in my head, I'm like, you're spending more money unnecessarily, but in her head, it's like it's a big saving.
Wendy
Yeah, my Mum does the same with washing powder for clothes. And I'm just like this sale, like, from our knowledge of working at Woolworths, it'll come around again. So it's just so weird that you have this mentality and I almost feel like I have this mentality now. Like, when I see stuff on sale, I'm like, Oh, my gosh. I'm so much more like my Mum than I realised.
Tracy
Also now with online shopping, it's going out and getting the coupon codes and signing up for those subscriber discounts and things as well.
Wendy
But growing up when I whenever I bought stuff. It was like, whenever I wanted to show my mom what I bought, she wouldn't even ask me... or compliment what I bought. She would just be like, "Oh, how much was it?" And I would never tell her the actual price, I would kind of take off like 20 bucks, or 50 bucks. And I think I just didn't want her to worry or think that I was spending money on unnecessary stuff. I also didn't really want to cop a lecture. I probably knew that I was probably buying something that I shouldn't be buying. But yeah.
Tracy
Yeah it's always, "How much was it?" It's always a question. Let's talk about how I feel like in Asian cultures, money equals success, if that makes sense. I think growing up I've always been, that's kind of the value. It's always like, if you're successful, it means you have money and you can buy a house and settle down. That even applies to like, non-Asian families, maybe. Like the Australian dream of owning property, or a house. But I think growing up, I always measured my success in a career by how much money I made.
Wendy
Yes. 100% agree with that. It's actually the first question that my parents ask me when I told them I've moved to move to a different job or, you know, I found a new opportunity. They're always like, "Oh, so how much is your new salary now?" And they don't ask anything else, they don't ask like, "Oh, how's like the working culture?" Because I feel like they don't really care?
Tracy
Because the money is the most important thing. Why would you work for fun? Yeah, you're working for money to support yourself. And I even get like when I've moved jobs, so many different times, but every time, it's not just my parents, but my extended family, the first question is always like, "Oh, just get more money. Are they paying you more now?" But for me, at the moment, that's not the problem. Like for me, it's like whether I'm enjoying it and I'm getting stuff out of it that's not money. Yeah, even if it's just a small bump, I'm okay with that, because I'm getting other value out of it, but they don't really see that.
Wendy
I also think that perhaps, when we have a family, our mindset might change, like, we may have a greater focus on money. We'll probably, at that point, understand why they ask those types of questions. But again, I think it's because like, they don't want us to end up working so hard for something that's not worth it, and then building a future that's not really going anywhere. And so I feel like money is one of the greater indications of whether you're in a good place or not.
Tracy
Yeah, yeah. I mean, especially for them since they've worked so hard just to make that money.
Wendy
Yeah. On top of that, I think also, around the housing conversation. I don't know about you, but when I'm at work and I'm talking to a lot of workmates, a lot of them have moved out. Yeah. But I think they kind of know that for Asian families, like we stay at home to save on rent so that we can buy property in the future, like sooner.
Tracy
I think like, it doesn't even make sense to me, why would you go out and pay rent, but you can stay at home, save the money and then buy a house? And I think that's just like, a mentality that my parents have instilled in me that, why waste your money when you have a home here.
Wendy
Yeah, but I think a lot of my friends have moved out mainly because they just want their own space, and the mental clarity of being able to do whatever you want, without having to tell your parents where you are, and all that kind of stuff. And I think I understand that a lot more now because, you know, going on exchange and living away from home for a year and the freedoms that we had, and then coming back and living at home again. I think if you have never lived out of home, you don't know what that freedom feels like. So I think a lot of people are willing to make that financial sacrifice, even though they know that you might put set them back a little bit.
Tracy
Yeah, I think it's just something that's not embedded in our culture, potentially, like, it's just not something we're familiar with, as well. But yeah, I can understand that. Should we talk about what the traditions and rituals are around money in Asian culture? I think money, we've kind of touched on it, but money in Asian culture is really a symbol of like, respect, gratitude and kindness. I think I'm very used to my parents, or my aunties and uncles kind of flexing in terms of paying the viewer family dinners or even the other day, I went to dinner, and we saw my dad's friend or something, at the same restaurant and he immediately went over and was like, "I'll cover your bill."
Wendy
Oh, my gosh.
Tracy
We were like "What?" But for them it's how you be polite, or how you show respect to your family to your friends by paying for them and covering their bill at restaurants.
Wendy
It's not even about the monetary value, like the numerical value of it anymore. It's more so about communicating that you like you respect them, we acknowledge that, you know, they're people that you want to spend money on and be kind. I think, demonstrates, like, the relationship that you have with that person, whereas I think in our generation paint when someone pays for my meal, I feel so bad. I'm like, No, give me your bank details. I need to transfer you or like, I'll pay for the next one.
Tracy
Or we split the bill equally, or whatever.
Wendy
Yeah, it actually lingers in my conscious like, Oh, my God, they bought drinks for me, I need to buy drinks for them.
Tracy
But also for me, when I think that, I feel like maybe it's related because I hate the idea of being in debt. Maybe that's also something that came whilst I was growing up up because growing up, I've had instances where like, I feel like our family has been in debt so I hate those kinds of situations. So growing up now, I feel like I never want to feel like I owe someone anything but it's about financial freedom. Yeah, I want to be able to pay for myself and not feel that I'm in debt.
Wendy
Yeah it's like an accomplishment. Right? Yeah. It's like, I think it goes to the conversation around credit cards as well. Like, I don't know about you, but I think growing up my parents always like don't get a credit card. Like, well, like we see it in movies, having a credit card is actually a bad thing because you're gonna be in debt and I feel like I don't want that like in my subconscious either. No, but to be honest having a credit card is actually not that bad sometimes.
Tracy
Yeah I guess, it's like, because our parents probably never had credit cards because they probably couldn't afford it.
Yeah, or like dealt with everything in cash.
Right? Exactly. The idea of debt is just so scary. Because I know debt can be a cause of so many family issues and can really be the thing that tears a family apart. So I think having the idea of debt is just really scary.
Wendy
But the only debt we like happy to have is like a mortgage. It's super strange in that sense. But I think also money plays a part in Lunar New Year as well, when we think about like the red pockets we receive. What this really means is like showing generosity from like one family to another, but it's also about wishing each other good luck, good health and prosperity, which is really important during that time. But for those who don't know, like, when you give red pockets, the amount that you give is really dependent on how close you are with the family.
Tracy
It's also going to be an even amount, right? Yeah, I think so. Like even someone like $25, or something.
Wendy
You can't give two notes. Yes, maybe like one note.
Tracy
No, yeah. But it's very symbolic. I think money is very, very symbolic in our Chinese culture. Like, even if it's even if it's $10 in a red pocket, that carries a lot of weight, because it's like this person is giving you luck.
Yeah. So it's not about the money. And also, you should never open it in front of the person that gave it to you.
Wendy
Yeah, that's really bad.
Either disrespectful, but also would bring bad luck.
Tracy
Have your parents ever given you a gift that's not money?
Wendy
I mean, for things that I've asked for, like a set of textas or like a colouring book. But not for birthdays, we don't do birthdays, we don't do Christmas. And even for birthdays, it's more so the gesture of like cooking us a meal a really big one - maybe lobster or crab and buying you a cake. I think that's the gift of love.
Tracy
Yeah, I agree. Because I feel like they maybe feel like spending money on items is a waste of money as well.
Wendy
You'd rather invest in like, experiences, not experiences, sorry. Education...
Tracy
Education or like a house.
Wendy
Anything that indicates investing in your future, they're all for it. But I think it's like, if you're just buying, a toy, clothes, things that are deemed useless, or even spending money on extracurricular activities (that is not education related). So sport was never a thing. I asked for art classes, that was never a thing. I did guitar lessons in high school as well, and I paid for that myself. But I told my parents, I was like, I'm doing guitar lessons and I'm paying for it myself. And it was such a, like, I was just trying to flex them that like, I can do things for myself, you know, with my hard earned money. But I knew if I ever asked for that from them, they would never give me money.
Tracy
Well, on that topic, like, how has your relationship with money changed since like growing up? How did money show up in your life as you grew up?
Wendy
I think very similar to you where it's been a constant topic in the household. And my parents put a lot of emphasis on it, because they work so hard for it. And I think having four kids is really hard, like kids are expensive, you know. And for context, like the age gap between my sisters and I, the first three anyway, are quite close. So you could imagine trying to put your kids through school, having to pay for excursions, having to pay for camp or like tutoring, that's a lot of money. And I feel like that put a lot of stress on my parents, but as a kid, you don't know. You take it for granted.
Tracy
Even in hindsight, I'm like, how did they even afford or that? Yes, working part time jobs, cash in hand, you know? Yeah, I don't understand it.
Wendy
But like they're so that's what makes them so smart about money because they had to hustle so hard to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get every cent, you know. And like, we had our fair troubles around finance and earning enough. But I think, as I've gotten older and started to work at a really young age and kind of be able to self sustain, that has led me to have a healthier relationship with money. Whereas I growing up, it was kind of like something I couldn't have control over. Yeah, but I saw that it was creating problems.
Tracy
Oh, that's a good one not having control over money. I think that's very relatable. I think growing up for me, I've always had money anxiety, like anytime I think on money, my heart race, I'm gonna talk about it, Like, I'll never be able to afford anything like, I'm so poor. I think I've always had a mentality that I would never have enough money. And I think that was probably drilled in me just growing up talking about the family being in debt or having issues around money. I just grew up knowing I'm never gonna be rich in my life. I'm never gonna be able to afford a house and I used to catch myself speaking to friends, and they'll say things like, "Oh, I'm saving up for a car or I'm saving up money" and instantly, I get anxious. I'm just like, I'm never gonna be able to do that.
Wendy
Really? Wow
Tracy
Yeah, so it's been a really long journey for me to get to this place now where I feel like actually, I have money. I am financially independent, then you realise that it's more of a mentality type of thing. I think having that poor mentality helps nobody, like saying, "I'll never afford that." You've got to catch yourself when you say those things because what you say, it's kinda like manifestation, right? It's like what you say, you're putting it out there in the world. And you're going around with a mentality that you're lacking. So now, I try to actually I really try to avoid saying things like, I can't afford that or I'm poor. Like, no, actually, I have money so I can afford that if I wanted to.
Wendy
Yeah I think something that, like we've never really spoken about, even though we've been friends for so long. So I find it really interesting because I feel like I'm the opposite in the way that people know, I love spending money. Like, quality stuff And I'm probably like, the first person to be like, "Oh, don't worry about it, it's all about the experience. So like, the money comes second. Yeah. And I think that's just a development or like a habit or thinking habit that I've developed, because I don't like talking about money in depth. And I don't like comparing myself to other people, based on my monetary value, or how much I have in my bank account. I absolutely hate that. Because I'm just like, who's that going to help? What is the point of me telling you how much I spent on a car or something? Because I know people will judge based on that and I don't want that to be like the topic of the conversation. But I think just personally, when I make decisions about buying stuff, I see everything that I buy as an investment now. Yeah, like if I'm buying an appliance from my home, I think about "Okay, like, what is it going to give me? Is it worth the money that I'm spending on it?" If I have to pay like 100 or $200 more for something that is quality then I'm going to do it. But I think, to your point about money, anxiety, like growing up and seeing how much my parents had to struggle around that, like in primary school, they knew that my sisters and I were all related, right? And they knew that my Mum was like, working so hard, they would kind of help out as well. So the school like, allowed us to go to camp, it was almost like at a discounted rate. So the school paid for a bit of it. and I feel like having that was super helpful. But seeing like, my Mum have to ask for that also was like, I think, I don't know how to explain the feeling. But it was just like, wow, they have to work so hard for for us to be able to have these opportunities. So I look at that now and like I said, not having a family myself, it's hard to relate to that. But I think eventually, I will be able to kind of see sense in like, why my parents had to hustle so hard.
Tracy
When did you become I guess financially independent? But like, you know, what kind of pushed you to do that? Because I know a lot of people, some people, you can just feel like, I'm just gonna get my parents money, you know?
Wendy
Yeah. I think it just made me uncomfortable. Because I just knew like, I'm not the only one they need to be paying for. There's three other people that I need to be considering as well. I think it was when I got like our job at Woolworth, like, that was major hustling. I mean, I had a job before that and it was at Eagle Boys pizza.
Tracy
Rest in peace Eagle Boys.
Wendy
I was getting paied like $8 an hour. And that was less about financial freedom but it was more about like, "Oh, I have a job" and it was such a flex in high school, because I was one of the older people in the grade. So I was like, Oh, I have a job now. But then when we went to Woolworths and started working for a constant paycheck, and I started paying for tutoring myself, and being able to buy my own stuff without having to like think about, "Oh, how much pocket money do I have?" I think that's when I felt financial freedom.
Tracy
Even pocket money actually, I never got any of that.
Wendy
Yeah, I got like $5 here and there, and I just saved. I remember I was on this constant of like, $120, and I just felt so rich. I was like, even if I just have over $100 I think that's an accomplishment
Tracy
Yeah, I think for me, like, as soon as I hit 14 and 9 months, I was like, I need to get a job because I like you said, seeing how much your parents really work hard to pay you to go to tutoring, to feed you, and then having siblings, on that, I have twin sisters. I always say that it's so expensive, like you're probably expecting to have one child but you have two and you've just got to spend double the amount every time, at the same time. So then I just felt really bad so as soon as 14, 9 months, I got my job at Woolies and as soon as I was making money, I was like you, I paid for tutoring, everything that I could pay for myself, I did. And that was probably my first journey to financial freedom, I felt so good about myself paying for tutoring. You know, your friends are like well, my parents paid for my tutoring then I will come with my own paycheck. I'll go to the ATM you know, like cash out like $400 or whatever for the tutoring and it paid for the semester. I remember I went to tutoring and they even asked me though like, "Oh, are you paying for this?" And I was like, "Yeah, I have a job to pay for it" and they felt so bad for me. I don't know, they just felt so bad for me. I just remember that she was like "Oh my god, why are you paying for tutoring? I can give you a discount," and stuff like that. And I was like no, no, like I chose to pay for my tutoring because I have money now and I want to pay for myself. And I think they didn't understand that, the tutoring centre, like, why aren't your parents paying for you? So it was interesting, but I just felt so proud actually, like, whatever I'm paying for myself.
Wendy
I also think that sometimes parents don't want their kids to work because they want them to focus on their studies. So they see a job as a distraction, they're like "Oh, let me work. You focus on your studies." And then eventually, when you start to work, you can take care of me.
Tracy
That's very true. Another tutoring story, I even had like, during my HSC, I think we both worked during HSC.
Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah, we did.
So we were still working at Woolies during HSC. And I remember my tutor at the time, he found that out and he was like, "Please, like, just quit your job, like, focus on your studies." Like he was even like, "I'll pay. I'll cover your last semester."
I remember this, is this Jimmy?
Yeah. I don't want to out him. People might go knocking on his door money. The tutor was very just like, "Focus on studies, I'll pay, I'll cover tutoring, you don't have to pay me like I want you to do well." And for me, I just couldn't fathom that because coming from a family where we didn't have a lot of money, I felt like I needed to work. Because I didn't want to put the burden back on my parents to pay for tutoring and I also don't want to take money from other people - another thing about feeling like you're in debt.
Wendy
I wonder if it's also, you being the eldest child and knowing your parents have like two younger siblings to also accommodate for as well. You're like, oh, the sooner that I can, you know, be self sufficient, they can just focus on my younger siblings. And I'm the third, I feel like I'm kind of in the middle where it feels like there's less pressure on me. But I just wanted to work because I was like, "Oh, I love working."
Tracy
I guess for me, the money wasn't coming from anywhere else except, if I worked, I'll get mone, if that makes sense. Like whereas, I feel like when I made money, I was able to also pay for my sisters meals and stuff, like there was somebody that could cover some of this stuff.
Wendy
Yeah, even now. Yeah. When I take my little sister or my sisters take me out, they'll pay for stuff. And it's like, we all have our own individual jobs but it's that idea of like looking after who's like younger than you or showing them that like, you can cover it. Like it's just a kind of, I don't know, it's kind of not really spoken about, but it's expected or not surprising, in a way.
Tracy
Yeah. It's kind of like, yeah, they're my older sister or they're older, they can cover it for me.
Wendy
They've been saving for longer.
Tracy
They've got money.
Wendy
I think paying for yourself for things like tutoring, I started to become more grateful for tutoring, or I was more invested in it. Because I was like, "Oh, this is my own money. So I should make the most of it." And I definitely was not grateful for say like Saturday school, tutoring, I didn't take it seriously when my parents were paying for me, and I still regret it to this day. Because now looking back, it's like shit, that was so expensive and that was them pouring all their savings into that, so that I could have the best education, but I didn't make the most of it.
Tracy
I guess when you're paying for it. It's like you have the power. And this is your choice that you make you put yourself into tutoring, you actually have to appreciate it.
Wendy
Yeah. 100%.
Tracy
How about like, experience with getting financial support growing up, like Centrelink and scholarships and stuff like that. I feel like Centrelink was a very, very big part of my identity growing up.
Wendy
Yeah, Youth Allowance right?
Tracy
Thank the government. Thanks government! But I don't know, like now being out of that. Obviously, it not getting Youth Allowance anymore. I think I didn't realise that that it wasn't... not normal, but like, I feel like everyone we knew was on Centrelink payments.
Wendy
Yeah. Like, it's just like, if you don't get use allowance, like, why don't you? You did something wrong.
Tracy
Yeah like why aren't you getting money? But now being outside of the bubble. I'm like, "Oh, hang on. This is pretty much like, because we're from a low SES area." That's why we're getting Centrelink payments. But then going out... what you didn't Centrelink payments?
Wendy
Yeah, I guess it's like, you know, accessing those things that were built to support people like us. My mum is always so anxious about the stuff like she would not stop hassling about, like, "Make sure you get your Youth Allowance." The thing with that system is that if any of your circumstances change, you need to report it to them and it's definitely improved over time. But it used to be such a long process and you know, Centerlink lines going out the door...
Tracy
Or on the phone with Centrelink. You're like waiting for like two hours
Wendy
The bloody ringtone, the waiting song.
Tracy
The tip is you have to like call like right as they open.
Wendy
Yeah like 8am. But you know those things like I never understood her anxiety around that. But now I get it, being older and reflecting back, she was really dependent on that money. Yes, I never saw how she spent that money or what it meant to her. It's just, I took it for granted for sure.
Tracy
I think for us, it was just a hassle. Right? I have to report to get money, like get free money, which is for them. They're like, it's money that actually we need to support our family. I think we didn't realise that at the time.
Wendy
And I also think that, um, all my Youth Allowance went to my mum and that was, I guess, like, my way, like, I never felt like it was my money. You know, it was just money to invest in the family and when I was on exchange as well, like, I was really lucky that I got a scholarship from uni. And I was just really thinking about it...like, what drove me to get that scholarship? And I kind of just subconsciously was like, "Oh, I should apply for scholarships." I didn't really think about like, sometimes people might not even think about scholarships, because probably they don't they don't need it.
Tracy
Yeah, exactly. They don't need it.
Wendy
I just thought, I should just apply for the scholarship. Because I think, you know, it's obviously going to help me out. It's just coming to that realisation now and how much it's helped me, it just like blows my mind because I think that's not the standard mindset of an average Australian, right?
Tracy
Yeah, because I feel like for us, it's like any opportunity to get money, apply for it. Basically, you apply for Youth Allowance apply for those bonuses apply for the scholarships. They're just drilled into us because we didn't come from a place with a lot of money. And same with me when I, like, I honestly feel like if I didn't get my scholarship at university, I probably wouldn't have been able to go on exchange the way I did. Like, I probably would have gone, but I don't think I would have been able to afford it. Yeah. I spent so much money on exchange.
Wendy
We spent so much on travel, like, yeah, it was like 40k or something by the time I got home. Yeah. And I was just thinking like, that definitely would not have been possible, even though I was hustling.
Tracy
Exactly, because we honestly, I think we started working at Woolworths, knowing we wanted to go overseas. Yeah, we knew we wanted to go on exchange ad that was part of the reason why I started working so young as well. But like some people, I guess they didn't have to think about that. They have the option to go on exchange whenever they want, because they probably have that money. Whereas us, we have to look for scholarships, and the jobs to be able to afford big things like that.
Wendy
Because without money, it's impossible. Right?
Tracy
It's totally impossible.
Wendy
And I also feel like, even though I knew I had all this disposable income for exchange, I still didn't use it all, I was still really frugal, because I was like, I need to come home and have financial stability.
Tracy
Yeah and also for me, I feel like a pocket of my money. I'm like, I need to like save this for my parents, in case they need or something.
Wendy
Yeah, you need to have like, like I was saying before that plan B bucket of money.
Tracy
Yeah. Like my money isn't my money.
Wendy
Yeah I also feel like whenever I get my pay, you know, some people are like, "Oh, got paid today. So I'm gonna spend." I'm just like, "No, I need to save every cent and I need to calculate like, what parts of my pay for this week, I can just spend on like say, food or going out." But every other dollar needs to go straight into my savings. I have anxiety about letting money sit in like my non-savings account as well.
Tracy
Ooo, let's talk about that. Like, I feel like money sitting there and not making more money. Yeah, investments, that is also a big anxiety. I think another thing is like investing money, I never really got into until like the last three years, starting to invest in ETFs, and stuff like that. But prior to that, I think my money literacy or financial literacy was so low, just because my parents never taught me how to manage money, I think I would say they're really bad at managing money, which is why we've always had problems with money. So growing up, I never learned how to properly manage it invest my money until I grew up and like, was in the workforce. And I never thought about investing. I don't know how to do that, that's so scary, I don't know what that is. Because I don't have money to invest, when I had that lacking mindset, I don't have money to invest. But now I'm like, I have money and I can invest. It was about learning and empower myself to do that.
Wendy
I think that's really, really good. Because I think I'm still on that journey of fearing that the investment space is so uncertain. Yeah, I know that there are like, you know, safer investments that you can make. But still, I'm just like, the fact that my money can go up and down. Like, no, I need stability, I need to know that that dollar value is going to stay the same and maybe like bump up a little bit using the banks interest rates or whatever. But at the same time, I just have not kind of stepped over that hill of like what investments can do for me.
Is it because like you need stability, is that tied to like your relationship with money and growing up or?
I think it's also like the landscape and the moment with just finance in general feels so uncertain. I'm like, I have a mortgage to pay now so I need to have financial security to know that I can make those repayments. But I know I've got the money for it so like why do I have some much anxiety? It's like I'm always waiting for something like really bad to happen and I'm just like, I just want to know that I'll be okay if that ever comes up.
Tracy
Money anxiety.
Wendy
Yeah, legit, it's a legit thing. But also like I really do shy away from or used to shy away from things regarding finance just in general. But I'm like, I need to like face the facts now that like you know, as an adult, you need to do these things, because also eventually I'm gonna have my own family. So I need to understand what my situation is, and how that impacts my future.
Tracy
Are there any resources or things that helped you become more money smart?
Wendy
I think CommBank is really good. Like they have a lot of like, "Oh, buying your first home? What does this mean?" All the banks do. But also, I don't know my partner's a mortgage broker, so very in that space. So also, I think when you've got resources around you, so people around you who are really good at those things, you feel less inclined to take it, like take it by the reins, like take the reins on your own. It's probably not the same, but you know what I mean? I feel like if I know, I've got people I can rely on and just ask questions, I'm just going to ask because I'm like, I don't want to waste space in my brain and store information that like, I know, I'm probably not good at. But like you said before, I think I definitely have better finance management than my parents because I think like they don't trust the finance system. But they just don't trust banks like they're like, oh, like, what if I they know I've got too much money? And I'm like, "Is that even a thing?" Yeah, yeah. Like, I've heard that from like, several like people and read it in articles as well and it's also a matter of trust in the system that has been built for us to manage our money. And I think, like for our parents probably getting paid through a bank is weird because they get paid to pay the cash in hand, right? So it's just really interesting, because I think we have been a part of maybe CommBank since we were so young. And now thinking about like, oh, CommBank is probably not offering me the best rates, need to shop around for another bank account and the interest rates.
Tracy
Because people in our generation had the Dolomites programme.
Wendy
Yeah, that sucked us in so hard.
Tracy
That totally sucked us into using CommBank. But also, I would recommend everybody go looking at their bank account, looking at the interest rates you're getting and I would almost guarantee that you're not getting the best interest rates and to go out there and look for bank accounts that actually will give you better interest rates. Even if you're investing, if your money's just sitting there, look for the one with the best interest rates.
Wendy
Other things like fixed rates and variable rates of mortgage like, that is a hot topic. Everywhere I go, like at work, just my friends asking me as well and it's just like, so weird, because it's obviously a very new space for me. But I think starting to get fluent in that area is kind of a big focus for me right now. Because you can't depend on anyone because like, you're the only one paying this mortgage so the pressure is on you. So I guess that's like my new relationship with like, money.
Tracy
Where did you learn all that mortgage stuff? Is it just self Googling, asking people?
Wendy
Yeah, Googling, asking people who had been through the process because articles can only tell you so much. And I think it also is really different because it really depends, like, where you're buying, what bank you're going with, like, there are a lot of variables. And for me, I think a part of it is like customer experience as well. I want to have a good experience with a bank that I know, if shit hits the fan and I need to ask for advice. Like, I know, the bank's got my back, in a way. So a lot of it was just like Googling, also, because I knew that I have no interest in learning everything on my own, or knowing that I could not learn everything, investing in professional services, that would help me. People like accountants, like I used to do my taxes myself but when I started my small business and freelancing, I'm like, I don't understand any of this so I feel like I want to invest in someone who can give me the right answers. Whereas like, you know, our parents might be just like, just do it yourself or try and find answers yourself or I know someone who can give you those answers for free.
Tracy
Yeah, I feel like it's really good that you're able to reach out to external sources for education and help because I think there's a period in my life where I felt like so overwhelmed by the lack of knowledge about money that I just didn't do anything about it. It was kind of like 'too hard bucket', I'm not gonna deal with it because I don't know how to deal with it. Whereas it's good that you're able to go oh, I don't know it but I'm gonna ask someone and I can take action about it.
Wendy
Yeah, yeah. I only took action when I felt like the time was right though. I think growing up, you know, in your early 20s is definitely fair enough putting in the 'too hard basket' because you're still young, you know? But there comes a time in your life, I feel like that's that time for me, when I was felt like I was prepared to buy my first home, I was like, "Okay, I need to make the strides to get to where I need to go and have the right understanding so that I'm making informed decisions." And I was like, constantly listening to like finance podcasts and all that kind of stuff and I think like, money doesn't need to be something that you're constantly thinking about it, it's a relationship that changes over time. And when you're ready to face it in that light, I feel like time will come. But I think growing up, I was just like, "Oh, eventually, I will think about it." And I looked at my sister's examples, not being the eldest really helped.
Tracy
Yeah, I think it's also like what you said, it's baby steps with money, you don't have to go overnight and become like an expert in money, it's not going to happen. For me what how what really helped was first dealing with my mindset, like not speaking as if I don't have money, catching myself when I'm saying I'm poor. And then knowing that I don't know anything about investments, I don't know anything about mortgage, I don't know anything about savings, I could have been like, "That's too scary. And I'm never gonna be able to know." So that's catching myself going, "Actually, that's a fixed mindset, you can actually grow in this area," and then taking baby steps to learn one step at a time and now money doesn't feel scary to me anymore. I would recommend Barefoot Investor.
Wendy
Oh, yeah. A lot of people have recommended that. I haven't read the book yet. But it's one of the top rated.
Tracy
Yeah, I think, take it obviously with a grain of salt, because it's very like directive, like he's like, "Do this, do this, do that." But then, you don't have to follow the steps by just reading it. He helped me, someone who genuinely had no financial literacy at all, I read that book and I felt like I learned so much from just the basics of finance. And then he started helping me like, think about other areas I wanted to learn more about and then gave me a branching point, I guess.
Wendy
Yeah, I think the other important note to make is like, don't feel pressure, just because the people around you are doing something. Like, I knew when investments was such a hot topic, like it kind of still is, or like buying your first home, don't feel pressured that you need to get on that level. I think that's when bad financial decisions come along. I think it should be more so like, start the conversation with yourself and start looking at, you know, resources, like books or podcasts to understand, are you prepared to take that next step.
Tracy
Or even start, like tracking your spending something as simple as that, like can get you in the mindset of thinking about money.
Wendy
Yeah, I used to hate tracking my spending, but I was doing it because of exchange and then once I came back from exchange, I don't do it religiously, like I don't save all my receipts and stuff like that. That's partially because like, I don't want to get to a point where I'm that frugal. I still want to live quite comfortably and be happy to, you know, spend more money here and there, when it warrants it for a good experience. But I think also you need to be sensible about it, like, not just kind of put on the backburner and just ignore that it's there because it's a real thing. You need to think about.
Tracy
It's harder these days now that we have, everything's digital. You can't physically see the money going in and out.
Wendy
Mindless tapping, right? That's actually like a thing. So like mindless spending has really grown over time because, you know, with COVID, we live in actually quite a cashless society so, as a result, it's so easy to tap and go. And you don't see that money coming out of your bank unless you go into your bank account or you see the notification, right? And when I was like doing research around this, this, like this Japanese technique to help manage money... I'm definitely going to say this wrong, I'm really sorry, but it's called a "Kakeibo." So it's like a mindful Japanese budgeting system, and I feel like it's like Marie Kondo, but for like finances. So that word translates to "household financial ledger" and it was like designed in 1904, by this Japanese female journalist. So it was an accounting system that was designed for housewives, initially, but then it started to be like, adapted and adopted by anyone and everyone. And it's like designed to give you control of your budget so that you're aware of your spending habits. How it works, very simply, the system asks the users to answer four key questions. So how much money do you have available? How much would you like to save? How much are you spending? And how can you improve? And that's like the starting structure. And I think that's a really good starting point to face the facts of where you are currently at and almost do an audit of your financial situation. I think there's like a template that you can follow to track all of this and it gets you to kind of really sit down and think about "Where am I at right now? Where do I want to go as well? And how can I make steps to kind of get there?"
Tracy
Yeah, I feel we're inspired actually doing this episode, I feel like I need to go check my finances because I don't track my spending, I just see it on my bank. I don't track like what I spend on some of that but I feel like I should start doing that to become more smart with my money.
Wendy
Before moving out of home, I was the same. So I knew that I was having constant income, and I knew a portion of that would go into savings and then the rest of it is like play money, so do what you want with it. But now that you know, I have to pay bills, I have to pay a mortgage like, knowing that you've got set expenditures, and then it's like, "Oh, how much do I have leftover?" If I needed to kind of do that review and have that mindset that like, I can still live comfortably, but knowing I've got enough to pay for those things.
Tracy
That's good because I think at the moment, what I do is I have that split so I know this is my paycheck, take home pay, and this amount is going to go straight into the long term savings account. And then the rest, like you said, is play money. Yeah, but it's just a guess. I mean, it's just an assumption based on how much I've spent in the last month. But looking at your spending, you can probably see where places where you can actually save more on like, "Oh, I spent $50 on coffee this week. You know, maybe I can cut down on that."
Wendy
Yeah, the other thing I realised through COVID was like, you know, we weren't going anywhere.
Tracy
Oh my god, I saved so much money.
Wendy
Yeah so did I, but you're kind of like blindly saving. And I almost feel like for myself anyway, it's really hard to save even though I know I'm saving, when I don't have anything that I'm saving towards. So when I don't have like a goal I'm kind of just like, "Okay, I'm saving this, but what's the point of all of this?" And you don't really make conscious decisions about your spending when you don't have something to work towards.
Tracy
That's why I feel like looking into investments is actually pretty cool. Because like for me, for example, I have a big bucket of savings. But I'm just like "What am I saving for like a house? Moving overseas, maybe?" But like, at the moment, the money is just sitting there. So when I was during the pandemic, I was kind of like maybe I should look into investing this so getting more out of it rather than sitting sit there the bank account.
Wendy
Yeah, versus the Asian mentality of having like, emergency money.
Tracy
Yeah like I need to be able to to access it immediately.
Wendy
Or like "Oh, maybe if I go and travel like this is what will be useful, but you don't have anything booked." Right? So you're just like, what am I actually working towards? So I think, yeah, me having my own place and knowing that I need to have enough to afford like groceries and stuff has actually put me in a really good mindset, because I feel like I'm in control of my finances and I'm in a really good place but I can also still spend quite freely and enjoy life. think also something that I learned through work recently, because obviously I work with financial institutions, and a stat that came up at a work meeting the other day was that I think, I don't want to say 90%. But for the first time in centuries, younger generations are going to be worse off than the one before.
Tracy
Scary.
Wendy
Yeah. And, you know, we used to think that, "Oh, we're going to be better off, like from our parents, because we have an education. We went to university, we've got like higher paying jobs" or that kind of stuff. But actually, with the cost of living in Australia, we're going to be worse off than our parents possibly, obviously depends on like, you know, your parents socio-economic status. But I went and actually looked for where this stat came from, so it was from the Grattan Institute generation gap report from 2019 and a few points that they made which I thought were quite interesting was, we're not making as many like economic gains as our parents due to slow economic growth. And when people hear this, they might think that like, you know, we’re spending too much on like avocado toast or like coffees and all that. But actually, with a lot of people, they're cutting back on that kind of spending to make up on the cost of living. So as a result, you know, it's not about like, the fact that we're being too frivolous. We're not frivolous about what we're spending, we're actually quite conscious of, it's just the cost of living rising. You know, and there's like several things that kind of go into this. It's like housing market is booming, interest rates are rising and also ageing population, with people living later, this leads to governments having to spend more money on supporting those people, greater spend on pensions, health, in aged care, etc.
Tracy
I think when I read somewhere that were the generation that's probably the first generation that is locked out of the housing market, basically, like it's so hard for people in our generation to afford a house compared to previous generations where it was a little bit easier to afford a house. So that's just something that we also have to deal with, the increase housing prices.
Wendy
Yeah. I think it's a reality that like a lot of people have recently realised that it's just gonna be really hard. I think because we're at the age where normally we would be buying property but it just feels more and more unattainable as more and more new comes out.
Tracy
But if there's a will there's a way.
Wendy
If we want one takeaway from the conversation today, I think it's like, review your finances so that it's not as scary as you might think.
Tracy
Be intentional with it. Yeah. And I think one thing we didn't really touch on is negotiating for your pay as well. Yeah, like now that we have full time jobs it's so important for you to know your value, and be able to negotiate for what you're worth as well.
Wendy
Yeah, I think we might do like more of an in depth episode on that in the future. But the way that I like to think about it, or what I always tell other people is like, bump the salary negotiation up, because you can always come down from Rather than being like, "Oh, I don't think I'm worth that much. So I'm just gonna give them like the base." Or like the average.
Tracy
You know females are more prone to doing that than males as well? We feel apparently that we're worth less for the same role that a male might be in as well.
Wendy
I don't think we need to explain with the history. Hot tip, I think always negotiate higher than the average. And it's so easy to look up the average of the pay of the role that you're in, across the industry. It's on like Glassdoor and everything. And I would say like, without considering super just like bump that up and then plus Super. I feel like with The Great Resignation, people are more likely to be comfortable talking about pay.
Tracy
I think it's so important. And I feel like, you know, historically talking about how much you make is so taboo. I don't understand. For me, personally, I feel like it's so important to you to have conversations with other people about how much you're getting paid, or how much people can be getting paid. Because it just like empowers each other like one person getting paid more, doesn't mean you're gonna get paid less. I think it's about really just bringing everybody up.
Wendy
And I think also, it might be illegal to talk about, like your pay with other people in the same company, same company. So just be careful that I am always really open with other people in my industry, because I'm like, such a big fan of like empowering others. It's like know your worth, you know, get paid especially because we came from a background where finance was such a big topic, and it was such a stressful topic. And with a cost of living, everything we've talked about today, like you need to consider these things for your future.
Tracy
Yeah, yeah, actually, for future episodes, it'd be cool if we could bring in like a financial expert. So if one of you guys if anyone in listening know someone or is a financial expert, and want to jump on our podcast, let us know, get in touch because obviously, we're not experts in this field. It's just all about our experience and our relationship with money. But it'd be cool to have someone on our poddy.
Wendy
I know we're all about the creative industry and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, we're also very big on you know, growing up as Asian Australians, the experiences we had. Yeah. Cool. So we hope everyone took a lot out of that, because I think I did as well.
Tracy
I think this is a push for me to actually like, think about my finances even more intentionally and figure out, you know, how I can make more money.
Wendy
So jumping into dinner table questions. The first one that I have for you Tracy is "What's your guilty pleasure?"
Tracy
My guilty pleasure?
Wendy
Could be anything like what you do to relax, maybe food?
Tracy
Oh, you know what my guilty pleasure is? Trash books. Like, like teenage fiction. fiction, but I just like really, like just easy to read books that I just like trashy, like, with probably no value, but it's just like cheap entertainment.
Wendy
Can you give us any recommendations of your favourite?
Tracy
Like those beach romance reads?
Wendy
Oh, yeah.
Tracy
I don't know, like, Conversation with Friends. Yes, Sally Rooney. Sorry I don't mean to call you trash. But like quick, quick reads that like, you know, it's just like watching reality TV show. Yeah. Like friends to lover books.
Wendy
Yeah, it's like reality TV or like "To All the Boys I Love" type.
Tracy
Yeah those types of things. What's yours?
Wendy
Probably online shopping.
Tracy
Okay, speaking on the topic of spending money.
Wendy
Like I'm always on some kind of site. But I never buy stuff, that's the thing. Like it's my guilty pleasure because I'm just like these are the things that I could buy. Yeah, digital window shopping. It's also because of the Instagram algorithm, like I'm such a sucker. I'm like the perfect audience to target.
Tracy
But do you have a site a specific site that you're always on?
Wendy
I'm always on either clothing stores, I'm very minimalist clothing stores and it's usually ones that are international. So like, Aritizia is one which is Canadian and then there's another one like W concept. And I just always go on their site and look at stuff but I never buy it. Yeah, I add it to my cart and I just, it's almost like I'm creating what I assume my capsule wardrobe would be when I'm rich and have enough money.
Tracy
It's like your vision board. Also hot tip for people, if you want to buy stuff online, put in your basket and leave it there overnight, like go through all the steps, but don't actually buy it. Some algorithms pick up that you're about to buy something so they might send you a discount code via email.
Wendy
Oh, really?
Tracy
You know, The Iconic does it? You have some shopping left in your cart. Here's 5% off.
Wendy
But that's only if you sign up to be a member right?
Tracy
Yeah you're part of that account, then they'll have your emails. But I know people who like genuinely, they want to buy something, they leave it in the cart for a few days. then take it out. And then sometimes if you're lucky, you get discount code.
Wendy
Okay, that's like so bothered. I always look for coupon codes. And I always use like, cash back.
Tracy
Okay, the next question, What three things do you think of the most each day?
Wendy
Oh, my God. What am I going to have for dinner? What am I doing on the weekend? And what's the weather today?
Tracy
Oh, what's the weather? I used to think about what's the weather all the time, but now I don't go out.
Wendy
I always ask my Google Home. Yes, yeah.
Tracy
That's the only question I ask my Google Home.
Wendy
What about you?
Tracy
What am I going to eat? Like, what's my next meal? Because for me, what I eat can make or ruin my day. Because I love food so much that like, It's the highlight of my day that I have to eat good, which is why I'm very indecisive when it comes to food. I'm like, "Oh, what should I make for lunch? And what can I do to have a really good meal?" When am I going to sleep? What like, oh, how many hours of sleep will I get? That's what I think about a lot, so sad. I feel like I think about exercising every day. I think about it. I'm like, "Oh, why should these days I should go back to the gym."
Wendy
That is me too. Yeah, I don't think about it every day.
Tracy
I think about how much fitness I get in a day. Like, am I walking around too much? Am I sitting too long? Have I taken enough steps? I just like being active.
Wendy
At least you're conscious of it. I think the other thing I also think about is probably not so much. What am I going to do on the weekend? That's probably more of a Thursday, Friday thing, but like, what am I going to wear tomorrow?
Tracy
Oh, actually, yeah, that's good. What am I gonna wear tomorrow?
Wendy
That's only if I go into the office and the type of person who needs to have their outfit laid out. So that in the morning, I'm not thinking about it, because it just saves so much time and decision fatigue. Yes, exactly. Last question. What is the best and worst gift you've received?
Tracy
This is very difficult because I'm going to single someone out the worst case, let me think about that.
Wendy
I'm definitely gonna do that. But it's just a joke.
Tracy
You know, I thought I've never really received a bad gift. Maybe like a Christmas gift or something. But I feel like all my birthday gifts, obviously people who give you birthday gifts are like people who know you so those gifts are always really good. Maybe a worst gift is like something I've received for Christmas like something random, like Kris Kringle? Yeah, like Yeah, phone holder or something, actually, I think it's pretty helpful. I don't know. Oh, I know. I'm gonna call someone out but it's like, Bad Santa. So it's not actually receiving a gift but then I ended up with a ceramic house decoration.
Wendy
Oh I remember this!
Tracy
Shout out to my friends. You guys know who you are. I was like, what am I going to do with this? I give to my dad who really likes gardening. So it's in our backyard somewhere.
Wendy
It was so funny. Oh my gosh.
Tracy
Yeah, it was just it was nice. But I was just like I don't have anywhere to put this.
Wendy
I remember that story.
Tracy
Best gifts I've received, every year I receive a good gift. I sometimes actually I think about you know back in high school when you guys all chipped in for my DSLR...
Wendy
Oh yeah... was that my idea?
Tracy
Yeah, it was. I don't know how you guys afforded it.
Wendy
That was pretty wild, hey.
Tracy
Like a DSLR proper, it was a Canon 600D, something like that. And like that genuinely... getting that gift from my high school friends really helped kickstart my creative interests. I've always was kind of interested in photography and like photos and some of that, but then having a DSLR you feel so legit.
Wendy
Aw I'm glad it was so meaningful!
Tracy
I know it was very, very meaningful.
Wendy
And back then everybody carried a DSLR at school. It actually blows my mind that we've carried that massive chunky thing to school to take photos but there was such a big like selfie or like photo culture.
Tracy
I love the shutter sound of the DSLR.
Wendy
Yeah I would still use a DSLR to go travel over using my phone.
Tracy
I would still use, it makes you feel more intentional when you're taking the photo. Even though our phones these days are better, the quality is the same as a DSLR.
Wendy
Yeah, that's nice.
Tracy
Okay what's your best and worse?
Wendy
I think I've told multiple people this, but the worst gift I've ever received was like Kris Kringle in high school, I got an ant farm. Tracy's laughing because she just knows. Guys, I got like a kit to start my own ant farm.
Tracy
I think it would have been cool for some people but for Wendy probably not ideal.
Wendy
I think I just used the sand for something else. But yeah, every year as a joke for Kris Kringle, like I tell my friends like give me anything but an ant farm. The trauma still lingers. Yeah, I'm joking. I'm just being dramatic. I don't necessarily have a best gift. But I think the category of gifts that I really like are the sentimental ones, the ones that I like really well thought through and not just like another thing that you could just get for the average person. And I think Tracy always gives me really good gifts because I think like when a person knows you really well, they get you something that's like super meaningful and useful as well.
Tracy
You know when I got you the coordinates bracelet?
Wendy
Oh yeah, but I lost it. That was sick. Yeah, no, I can't remember like every gift that you've ever gotten me, every year is so different. But yeah, for context, the coordinates bracelet was when I was going on exchange the next year and then Tracy got me the coordinates of 2166 or of my house. Aw that was so nice. Yeah, that was super sentimental because yeah, I could take it away with me when I went on exchange.
Tracy
I was also thinking you know, the video you made for me for my high school birthday.
Wendy
I fully like booked out of room to have like a viewing party.
Tracy
Yeah, she went around and she got our friends to record birthday message or something and you put it in the CD like it was like a DVD case and everything.
Wendy
Yeah and I put it in a cover and everything.
Tracy
Yeah, there was a cover and everything, it was like very cool. Yeah, I think we're very good at giving each other gifts because we know each other so well. Yeah. It's more about the sentiment behind it rather than the gift itself.
Wendy
And it's like still rings true today. Like I don't think we've gotten to that stage where you know, like, if you're in a long term relationship, we just get each other like what you need. It's like, when your birthday comes around, or like when my birthday comes around, I feel like we put so much thought into it. Yeah, and I don't give gifts to many people. I feel like you're one of one of the few people that I always do.
Tracy
Yeah.
Wendy
That's a nice note to end on. Like, you know, just our love story, classic. But as per usual, join us on our socials @aseatatourtable.podcast. Even after like 18, 19 episodes, why do we still struggle?
Tracy
I know we always struggle with it... is that our Instagram handle?
Wendy
But yeah, you know where to find us. Until the next episode. Bye!