Our Asian Idols Growing Up
EPISODE 22 — 24 SEPTEMBER 2022
“We couldn’t find that comfort in mainstream media, in terms of the shows we were watching on TV, what we saw in cinema, what we saw in movies, so our niche became YouTubers, K-pop, K-dramas, TVB. We had to go to those streams because we weren’t getting the representation in the mainstream.”
ABOUT THE EP
From YouTube to music to TV, who were our Asian idols growing up? We unpack the Asian media landscape that shaped us, pay homage to the OG trailblazers, and analyse the current state of Asian representation in media.
THE DETAILS
The Asian idols we grew up with
The different types of Asian stereotypes in media
Why it matters to have authentic stories in mainstream media
The Asian Australian landscape vs the Asian American landscape
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Wendy
Hi, friends. Welcome back to the pod. Episode two of season two.
Tracy
Woo, season two. I hope you guys are enjoying the season so far.
Wendy
Today, we're talking about what we're framing is like Asian idols. But essentially, we're talking about Asian representation in media. And I want to just preface that, in a lot of what we're talking about today, a lot of it is focused on like Asian American representation, mainly because the Asian Australian landscape itself, I feel like is still taking off or there's been like, less news or articles about it. And a lot of what we've consumed growing up has been Asian American media, but we're gonna be like, comparing both as much as we can.
Tracy
I think planning for this episode is kind of like realising, oh, we have been really heavily influenced by the Asian American culture and the Asian Australian identity isn't as strong. So yeah, it's interesting. And it's nice to kind of see more things happening up in our local space.
Wendy
Let's start from the very beginning. So, as children or as young adults, Tracy, what kind of Asian representation in the media were you exposed to?
Tracy
I think of this fondly because YouTube back in the OG days, what a time guys. If you guys are our age, when YouTube first started basically like, the page was completely different, and the homepage looked different, where they had like, the list of trendings or whatever. Yeah, it was really old. But I think back on the OG Asian YouTubers, so Community Channel, Nat Tran, the OG, the Queen herself, like seriously, the best. Obviously, Wong Fu Productions, who's very active still today. They played a big role in my upbringing.
Wendy
Yes, mine too.
Tracy
Yeah. Who else? Nigahiga.
Wendy
I didn't watch him that much but I did hear his name being thrown around. So Ryan Higa. I thought about KevJumba.
Tracy
Oh, KevJumba, classic.
Wendy
Yeah, and I actually recently saw his face pop up on Facebook. Yeah, but I was just like, wow, I just from that I was reminiscing about seeing videos of him and his dad. I could just hear his voice and his dad's voice, it was crazy. Yeah, some other ones that I watched was Anna Akana. MyChonny, obviously. Just Kidding Films too.
Tracy
Happy Slip. I loved Happy Slip.
Wendy
I think I actually consumed more like TV shows type of media. So you know, like TVB dramas. There was that like cop one that I used to watch all the time.
Tracy
Forensic Heroes! 1, 2 and 3.
Wendy
Yes, that was so good. Yeah. And also like if you think about Disney channels, so Suite Life of Zack and Cody like, Brenda Song, she was the only one who was an Asian on that. But also I loved Korean dramas.
Tracy
Taiwanese dramas as well. Smiling Pasta.
Wendy
Oh my god. Wow. Really throwing back. But also it's not limited to like real life people. I think cartoons as well actually.
Tracy
Yeah, when I think about Asian representation in media back in the day, cartoons come up so much more. I guess it kind of makes sense. Because like anime and stuff like that. Yeah, Avatar The Last Airbender.
Wendy
I feel like Avatar was huge. But anime itself. Like, I feel like there's a differentiation between media that comes out of Asia itself, right, versus like, Western countries producing it. Like, I added in Power Rangers and Hi-5.
Tracy
Oh yeah, the Asian chick in Hi-5.
Wendy
Yeah, Kathleen. Yeah, she was my favourite. Annd now I wonder like is it because she was Asian?
Tracy
But yeah it is. Yeah, so for me I realised that all I gravitated towards was the only Asian every single TV show.
Wendy
Even in Power Rangers there was that one Asian guy.
Tracy
Like, guys, Flora from Winx Club, was she Asian?
Wendy
Oh, yeah, I mean she got black hair right?
Tracy
Yeah, this is probably problematic, when the Asians you can tell because of black hair and like squinty eyes.
Wendy
Yeah,l ike that's an actual thing. Like, when I was going through like research for this, they call it like, subtle Asian coding or something like that. So like obviously making Asians look different through specific features such as eyes, skin tone, colour of their hair, yeah.
Tracy
I always identified with those characters.
Wendy
Yeah, subconsciously I think I did as well.
Tracy
Yeah, American Dragon, Jake Long.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, I didn't really watch that much when I grew up, but yeah. Crazy. What about like in music? Did you consume any like Asian music?
Tracy
I actually don't think I did to be honest. Other than listening to like, Asian parent music. Yeah, I never really to be honest. I realised when I growing up, all my music was Western. Yeah, I actually don't think I listened to any Asian music except like OSTs or like soundtracks?
Wendy
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I listened to heaps of Korean music growing up. I loved 2PM. But even the Korean music landscape itself has changed so much you know with BTS. But like yeah, with BTS and Blackpink taking off, they're even bigger globally than in their own country. You know what I mean? That's insane. Yeah. But I remember like Chinese music like Fahrenheit and HE. I listened to the music, but I never thought about like, their, their presence in the industry. Yeah, it was just something I grew up with.
Tracy
Yeah. It's interesting, because like, all the stuff that we consumed is like, like you said, coming from Asia, if that makes sense. There wasn't a lot of Asian music coming from Western countries.
Wendy
Yeah. Like not like 88 Rising, which is a big deal. Right?
Tracy
Like the closest we got was like, Dami Im.
Wendy
But that's even considered more recent. But I also think about movies. When I was trying to come up with this list. I was like, Jackie Chan, Lucy Liu. Like, I don't know, those were the only two people I can remember seeing consistently as Asian actors in Hollywood movies. And then Disney, just Mulan. Literally, just Mulan. Pretty shocking. Yeah. But also, I kind of had a look at like, how are these like, Asian characters in movies generally represented? I actually came across something really interesting. It's like a Harvard School paper. It's titled 'Media matters, Why Asian American Representation in Media is a Social Justice Issue'. So this was released last year in May, by Michelle K. Sugihara and Jess Ju. So this is a paper that observes like Asian American representation in media and in particular, they look at the stories and the narratives told through media. So they're kind of highlighting that, you know, the stories and the narratives that are told now they need to have more like breadth and depth. And they need to include nuances of like, what our multi-ethnic and like communities go through, and the experiences within that, rather than just being like, you know, the typical refugee story. Yeah, or the typical roles of being the model minority.
Tracy
Yeah, like we are multifaceted, but we only really get a couple of certain representation in the media. And because there's no other options for us, we almost have to relate. Well, we have to try to resonate with that one character.
Wendy
Yeah, like it's a very siloed experience, but because that's what we can access. That's what we try and relate ourselves.
Tracy
Yeah. Hi-5 for example, definitely Kathleen was my favourite because because she was Asian, not because of any of the activities she did.
Wendy
Exactly, yeah. And now that we're adults, like reflecting back on it, you're like, wow. But what I thought was great about this paper is that it dives into like, the different types of roles that people play in movies and how it leads to real world implications. So not limited to movies, but generally you seen it in movies, and it made me like reflect on all the movies that I've watched. So the first is like the model minority. So portraying Asians generally like East Asian and South Asians as studious, educated, successful and smart and hardworking. We can relate to right?
Tracy
Yes. 100% can relate to it. I can actually imagine this in movies, you know, those teen movies, there's always the Asian carrying books with glasses and a backpack on.
Wendy
Or like the nerd or they play like, Oh like I'm helping my friend like coding, hacking the system, or like they're really good at math. So this paper showed that this has led to the misguided belief that Asians are hardworking, but they're not charismatic or effective leaders.
Tracy
I'm actually thinking now in those teen movies, I only ever see Asians in math club. You know, when there are scenes where they're like doing math club or whatever. What is it? The decathlon? I don't know if that's right. What's a decathlon?
Wendy
Decathlon's a shop! But isn't it fascinating that like, that's led people to think that in like jobs or in careers, Asians are known for being really hardworking, but they're not seen as potential for more like leadership roles. Yeah, which I think, I guess it's like less so now, because we're seeing more like Asians in leadership in like the industries that we work in.
Tracy
But yeah, it's like they're seen as quiet hard workers, so they don't have the charisma or extrovertism to be a leader. But also, because the Western definition of being a leader is linked to being extroverted, charismatic, and what not, but that's not, you know, very accurate or reflective of what it should be.
Wendy
The other role that you often see is like the perpetual foreigner. So this is like the foreign exotic un-American character who often has an accent or might not be able to understand English. But often they're attached to like more barbaric practices, such as like eating cats and dogs. So in this case, like, the implication of that is like, we in real life are mocked or singled out for being like othered, or having a really different, I guess, like background or traditions that we believe in.
Tracy
People kind of look at it like, Oh, what is that, so exotic. Yeah, that's interesting. It's good that I don't feel like I see this type of archetype that much now. I can't really remember a prominent example of when an Asian has been portrayed this way in recent times.
Wendy
Yeah. I was watching a YouTube video that summarises movies where these roles are very prominent. It's obviously movies actually, before our time, so more so in the 1960s. And it's like, insane when you see the actual representation of it in movies, because it was actually very, very real.
Tracy
And interestingly, you know, when white foreigners are portrayed in Asian films, it's like almost the opposite. Like they're looked up to, they're like rich, I think it's just interesting.
Wendy
In TVB dramas, there was always that one white, token white guy, and he would speak Chinese. Yeah, he always played like a business character. Yeah. The third one was like hyper-sexualisation of Asian American women. So they're often seen like in provocative clothing, or there's some level of nudity as well, like nightclub scenes. I also thought about like Memoirs of a Geisha? Yeah, that too. So they're portrayed like, or they're objectified on screen. So they're perceived again, as like exotic. And I think this influences how like Asian women are fetishised in real life. So you know, the whole thing about like yellow fever I think plays into this and is influenced by this type of role. The last one was on the opposite side. So the emasculation of Asian men. So on the other end, Asian men are often emasculated and humiliated. And this was the result of like the initial wave of the Asian immigration where Asian men will have often limited to domestic work. So work that was traditionally done by women such as nannying, cooking, laundry. This was something new for me, obviously, because it's like very Asian American focus. But this led to the perception of Asian men as unattractive and sexually undesirable.
Tracy
Hmm, interesting. Yeah. And I guess like the type of people they cast in those movies, they're like a specific body type as well. Yeah, like really skinny? Yeah, like they don't have presence compared to maybe their white counterparts. And there's also one that's not on here that I've been reading about is like the stereotype of that if an Asian is casted for a bigger role, it's the Kung Fu role. Like they're there to do martial arts. Yeah, and there's a really good book called Interior Chinatown that kind of like is a satire on Asian representation in Hollywood that I've read recently. And it's about this guy who's an actor and him trying to move up from like, an extra to become kung fu guy, which is apparently the highest level of acting he could get to. And it's a satire on Asians in Hollywood and how they're only pigeonholed into being good at kung fu.
Wendy
Yeah, thinking about that. I just thought about how in movies sometimes when you see like a ninja character, it's always like almost guaranteed to be someone Asian.
Tracy
Right? And then if they're not Asian, it's also weird. I don't know.
Wendy
Yeah. It's a strange tension point. Because like what you were saying before about, like, when we subvert it, the white person in a TV show? Like, how do we respond to that? Like, I've never really thought about that until now. You know, but I honestly think that reflecting on all those different roles, like you said, I'm actually glad that we don't see this as often anymore, particularly in the movies or the shows that have come up, come out more recently, on Netflix, Marvel and whatnot. Like we're seeing Asians be stronger lead, yes. Or when Asian women taking like one of the main lead roles as well. So I feel like all of that came out of like, you know, the API movement as well. Like, there's a stronger push for it now. So I think the landscape is changing, but we'll get into the details of that later. Yeah.
Tracy
And we to say like, this is very American, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think Australia is still kind of catching up.
Wendy
Yeah. Like even when I was trying to think of like, Australian movies or TV shows where there's like a strong Asian representation.
Tracy
Are there Asians in Neighbours or Home and Away?
Wendy
I literally just thought about that. Do you remember, what's his name, Jai? What's that dance show on ABC?
Tracy
Oh, Dance Academy?
Wendy
Yeah, it was his name Jai?
Tracy
I didn't watch it. But his name is like something Rodrigues.
Wendy
Yeah. Like he was literally the only Asian character.
Tracy
And there was like, I think there was a mixed Asian guy in Blue Water High. Literally, this is scratching the end of the barrel for any representation in our Australian TV. Growing up, I don't remember any show where they had an Asian lead. Not even an Asian lead, that's asking too much. Like an Asian like supporting character.
Wendy
Or the dominance of like, Asians in those shows like they were always just like, one out of five or something? I don't know. How do you think that this impacted you growing up like being exposed to you know, the YouTubers that you listed before, but also now hearing about the types of roles that are prominent?
Tracy
Yeah, I think like, it's probably subconscious. Like, I think I'd never really realised that mainstream media didn't have Asian representation until, like, growing up, and then looking back and going, what the hell? Yeah, like, I think this one big moment for me was when I had a realisation maybe like five years ago that when I was in primary school, all my creative writing characters were white. Like all the stories I wrote, I always described blue eyes, blonde hair characters in all the creative writing stories I wrote as a primary school kid. You read back my old books, it was like they were never Asian leads. And I don't know why. And I was like, it's because growing up, we were never exposed to books that had Asian leads as well. So the stories we wrote weren't Asian dominated, if that makes sense. It was just interesting. And then I think how else it's affected me is like also feeling the pressures of that model minority stereotype. Because I feel like that's the most prominent. Obviously, I think the model minority stems from America, but it also applies in terms of like, Asian Australians being viewed as hardworking and reliable and obedient and rule followers. I felt the pressure like, younger in my earlier 20s to be like, Oh, this is probably what they think of me that I'm like straight laced, perfect. Like, yeah, to a sense, yes because I'm like an older child like yeah, we do have these characteristics but there's more to me than that.
Wendy
It's not because you're Asian.
Tracy
Yeah, exactly. It's my upbringing, who I am, it's not because I'm Asian that you can expect this from me.
Wendy
Yeah, but you think that like maybe people tie all those attributes of you because you're Asian.
Tracy
Yeah. So if I'm good at math, in my head, I'm like, do you think it's because I'm Asian that I'm good at maths?
Wendy
It's this vicious cycle of like identity crisis, like do they really know me or do they just assume this becayse if my race?
Tracy
Yeah. And then obviously like constantly looking, I think we said like in any media that I was always looking for the one Asian that I can identify and support in everything. But also holding my breath when I saw the Asian the one Asian person in media because I'm like, Oh my God, how are they going to be represented? Are they going to be like, with an accent? Are they gonna start speaking to have an accent? Or are they going to be negatively represented in a cringe worthy manner? So I think being conscious of that as well.
Wendy
Yeah.
Tracy
How about you?
Wendy
I agree with like, all those points. That's kind of what crossed my mind as well. But as you were kind of talking through that, I was just thinking, Oh, what did I watch recently? It was like a movie with an Asian family in royalty. Oh, my God, it was Bridgerton. Yeah. You know, my first thought when I saw that I was like, Asians would never be in royalty position. Like, especially say like, in the UK.
Tracy
But I guess Bridgerton was supposed to be like a modern remake? I mean, the queen is black.
Wendy
Yeah. But that's the first thing that crossed my mind. And it was because I feel like now reflecting on this, is because I was exposed to only things where Asians were the supporting characters, or they were never the lead in front. And so that's kind of like why I just responded to that.
Tracy
It's like, being shocked when you see Asians in front of screens or as the lead of anything, like, Oh, what's going on?
Wendy
Yeah, I think that I didn't really reflect about all of this until, you know, we reached out 20s, when you become more self aware of your own identity, and you start having the ability to compare yourself to, you know, people around you or like what you're being exposed to. So, you know, media is a very big part of that as well. But also growing up I think, I was constantly seeking, like comfort in the YouTube trailblazers who were doing skits about being Asian. Yeah. And it's like, what gave you something to talk about with your friends as well?
Tracy
Yeah. I think it's interesting, because we couldn't find that comfort in mainstream media, in terms of the shows we were watching on TV, what we saw in cinema, what we saw in movies. So our niche became YouTubers, K-pop, K-drama, TVB, like Asian culture, I guess. Like, we had to go to those streams because we weren't getting the representation on the mainstream. So we were going through Asian, like, produced stuff.
Wendy
Yeah, and it felt more realistic to relate to then a character that had been conjured up by say, like, Western media. But also, I think growing up, I never really questioned or sought comfort in media, mainly because like, we were surrounded by, you know, a lot of people who looked like us, a lot of people who came from similar backgrounds to us, in primary school and in high school, and so we didn't need to find that comfort elsewhere. Because we knew, you know, the people around us didn't make us feel like we were othered.
Tracy
Yeah, I feel very, very, very grateful that our formative years were spent with a majority Asian cohort, if that makes sense. Like, we grew up in a place that was majority migrant families, majority like Southeast Asian so I felt like going to school, I never felt like an outsider, never felt judged for like, loving Asian media. Yeah, like watching K-drama, watching Running Man, you know? Yeah, like, I never felt judged.
Wendy
But at work, I would never say I watch Korean dramas.
Tracy
See, that's the difference. At work, when you're not the majority, you're the minority, it feels like it's almost something to be ashamed of. Yeah, like when you say, Oh, I watch K-dramas, I like watching Terrace House, you know, things like that, it's almost like something you keep a secret, which is sad.
Wendy
But with the rise of streaming services and Netflix now, streaming more content coming from like Asia or with an Asian Focus, I feel like I don't feel as afraid to mention I actually watched Korean dramas or I watch Terrace House.
Tracy
It's almost cool now. Yeah, to consume Asian media, which is interesting. Like it's almost cool to be like, I watched this Korean film the other day, over the weekend. Yeah, like people think you're like cultured.
Wendy
You know, recently, one of my colleagues was like, Yeah, I watched that, like Asian dating show, Single's Inferno. And I was like, shocked, because I was like, Well, how do you know about these? But it's because it's been promoted. You know, and it's on Netflix, people have more exposure to it. Whereas before, like, we would need to kind of seek out Asian media.
Tracy
Yeah, we had to go to like, dodgy streaming sites. Like, yeah, like all these random ones with pop ups, whereas now it's so accessible. It's on Netflix.
Wendy
Yeah. But on that, I think the media landscape itself, or the Asian media landscape is changing over the past couple of years, especially with the rise of like, you know, anti-Asian hate crimes. I think Hollywood especially is making more of an effort to have, like Asian leads. And I came across a Bloomberg article, which mentions a study from the Coalition of Asian Pacific Entertainment, so CAPE for short. And in this survey, it's called 'I'm not a Fetish or Model Minority: Redefining What it Means to be API in the Entertainment Industry'. And essentially, they surveyed people who work as talent on screen, but also people in roles off screen, and actually didn't think about the roles off screen as well. So this includes like writers and producers. And essentially, as a part of the survey, 90% of the respondents came back and said that they felt that representation in the media, or Asian representation in media is still inadequate on screen, but also behind the scenes. And on top of that, they did like another analysis with a different institute called Geena Davis Institute on Gender and Media. And it analysed the top 100 grossing films from 2010 to 2019, and then the 124 films from studios or streaming services from 2017 to 2020. So this is pretty recent, right? And they observed how many characters were of Asian American and Pacific Islander backgrounds, and 35% of those characters embodied the stereotype as martial artists or model minority. And these are really recent, like this is in the last decade or so. And that was, like, pretty shocking, because, like, you know, we have obviously consumed a lot more media in the last decade. And I don't know, I feel like I was just subconsciously, like, soaking it in, but never really questioning it.
Tracy
Yeah. It's almost like you only expect to see those roles in movies, like you don't expect to see anything else. Like, if an Asian is going to be in it, they probably can do martial arts.
Wendy
Yeah, exactly. Or they're like playing the stunt role. But on the flip side, like behind the camera, as well, so people who are writers, producers and directors, 90% of them said that they're the only ones in the room. And 55% of those people said that they've faced blatant racism at work. So it's not just what's happening on screen. That's really important. But also what's happening off screen.
Tracy
Yeah, you can't write authentic narratives when you don't have people off screen that can represent those stories. And if it's like 90%, if they're the only ones in the room, it's quite hard to change, an embedded in a way of working.
Wendy
This makes me curious about the recent show that you saw written by Michelle Law. Top Coat. What was your experience of like, going and seeing that because I obviously haven't seen it, but I feel like that's one of the few examples of like, what it looks like to have an Asian writer create an Asian narrative. And it's authentic.
Tracy
Yeah, Michelle Law is so good at what she does. I think I've seen her very first play called Single Asian Female, I want to say. And I recently saw Top Coat and I just felt seen in a way that I've never felt seen before. Top Coat was about a body swap kind of comedy type thing. So it was an Asian Australian, working in a nail salon, like she was her goals were to like, open up a new nail salon. And then there was a like, a female white, like, executive working at a media company, and then they somehow swapped bodies, and it was like kind of a satire. Like the experiences in each other's bodies, and then the experiences of the white woman and the experience of the Asian woman. It was very, very interesting and like, very moving in terms of being able to see our narratives in a way that felt real. Like you can tell, I didn't have to think about, oh, it was written by a white person. When diversity isn't done right, you feel it? But when it's done, right, you don't feel it.
Wendy
That's kind of how I felt about Bridgerton. Because I was just like, this doesn't feel realistic.
Tracy
You're out of body, right? As in you don't feel immersed in it. You just feel like you're like, hang on, like this doesn't feel right.
Wendy
You just question the intention behind it.
Tracy
But then you don't have to question it and you're just immersed in the story in the narrative, then I feel like, that's what you should be like.
Wendy
Yeah, yeah. So job well done. It's authentic. It's genuine. It's coming from like, yeah, like a genuine place. I think when I heard about that, I was like, Well, I didn't even know that there was a show going on. You know, because it's not something that is on the screen, and it's not prominent. It's media that's not being like delivered to you. And like, I feel like you only know about it because you've also followed Michelle Law for a long time, right? But I think now, what's interesting is the changing landscape like the rise of Asian directors, so like Bong Joon-Ho, Chloe Zhao as well, the director who won, I want to say she's won like some really prominent awards. Yeah, but also Christina Oh from Minari. And then like, I'm seeing more Asians play leading roles. So Michelle Yeoh. You know, she started off as being a really prominent character in Crazy Rich Asians, right. But now I'm seeing her play more lead roles in like, Everything Everywhere All at Once. And she's also playing in I think, the upcoming Avatar movie or something.
Tracy
But also like, she's older now, too, right? It's probably it's taken her all this time. Now is the right time for Asian representation in media, and I'm sure she's gone through shit roles to get to where she is.
Wendy
Exactly. But there's also I feel like growing up like, apart from like, Jackie Chan and Lucy Liu. Right? There was, do you remember the dad character in Mulan? The most recent remake. He always plays that character. Like he was always the dad. I only know of him because like, he's always the one Asian in a lot of shows.
Tracy
The male lead, the husband in Everything Everywhere All at Once. So basically, this is his first comeback into acting since he tried going to acting I think how many years ago. He's obviously an Asian actor, and he had no opportunities. I think he did like one or so movies and then really, really struggled to find any work as an Asian actor. So he left acting. And then because of the whole new wave of Asians in Hollywood, he decided maybe it's time for me to come back. And he came back and then got this role. And he's literally like, a dad age now you know. So crazy that like, times have changed after that.
Wendy
Similarly, with like, Squid Game. It's an Asian produced movie, right, like, focused on being in Korea, yet a lot of people are consuming it beyond the Asian population. And it became such a movement that like, I feel like everyone at work was talking about. And like merch was being sold everywhere. Like, things like that, like you were seeing this pop up even more and more. And it's kind of like, I think you just described it nicely. Like it's a wave. And it's just getting bigger and bigger. Yeah, but it's, it feels so empowering. Because people that I followed for a long time, such as Gemma Chan as well, like seeing her have a lead role in Eternals. Like, it's less of so about the movie, but the fact that she has so much screen time. Yeah, you know, and she's playing a heroine as well in the movie.
Tracy
And it's so lovely to see like, we grew up with Wong Fu Productions and like anyone who's ever been in a Wong Fu Productions short, I feel like now they're popping up. Simu, obviously, like we knew him from Wong Fu Productions and now he's a lead in a Marvel movie. Yeah, crazy.
Wendy
Yeah. So I humble beginnings, and he was in Selling Sunsets as well. Yeah, he was looking for a house and then one of the agents was helping him look for a house. But that in itself, it's like a win for us. Like, I almost feel a sense of pride. Yeah, but even like, one of my favourite movies from Aquafina is The Farewell. Like, I think just moments like that snd the stories that they're telling especially The Farewell, I was like, holy shit like this feels so like cathartic in a way. Because it's like things that we haven't grown up with. But it's almost like we're rediscovering our stories through the media that we consume.
Tracy
I just had a thought. Do you feel like because we had all these complex experiences growing up, we never had ways to process it? Like relationship with parents, or like friendships, or like relationship with your grandparents. Like, it's so nuanced in terms of our experiences, but we never we never saw it in media. So there was never a way for us to like, open a discussion about it, or talk about these experiences. They were always just private, because we never saw it anywhere else outside of our internal life.
Yeah, there was nothing to make us realise that, Oh, actually, other people were experiencing this too. It's not just a single are siloed experience.
Like, did I miss out on like, you know, like processing trauma, thinking about how I grew up, reflecting. Because this is what media does, it makes you reflect right? We didn't have those opportunities. So it's almost like a thing that we missed out on.
Wendy
Yeah, no, 100% I feel like that's what I meant by like, yeah, all the things that we're now seeing it's like, oh, all these things that I experienced were not just me, but like, you can't be what you can't see. Yes, I think that, quote plays into this as well. It's like, everything that you thought you went through was a lonesome experience or used to suppressed is now kind of bubbling up to the surface again.
Tracy
There's also comedians, Asian comedians making a big impact. Yeah, they're coming up. Ronny Chieng, love him. Jimmy O Yang, Ali Wong. Like there's heaps of upcoming comedians also in the Australian landscape as well.
Wendy
Aaron Chen. Yeah, I actually saw him in an ice cream store. I was too shy to say hi. How do you think like Asian representation in general in the media impacts how people are perceived globally, like Asians are perceived globally?
Tracy
Um, I think this is interesting, because I think we're still very early on in that kind of Asian representation in media, honestly. I think like, there's obviously heaps happening right no but it feels like we haven't gone beyond 'This as an Asian movie', if that makes sense. Like, I think it's really, really important, like all the movies happening now. It's like rallying the Asian community. But in terms of it permeating into being normal, it's not there yet. Like it's starting. But like when a movie comes up, when do people not go, Oh, it's an Asian movie.
Wendy
Like that's not the focus.
Tracy
Yeah, it's just another another Marvel movie. There's another Marvel movie coming out, not it's the Asian Marvel movie, you know? I think there's a lot of pressure.
Wendy
Yeah, I think that's why so many people were like, oh, I need to go watch Shang Chi in the movies and support it because it was a big Asian cast. But also it was filmed in Southwest Sydney.
Tracy
There was like, so much at stake, because I feel like we couldn't let it fail.
Wendy
And it was almost like, even if it was a bad movie, like, you're still gonna support it. It would take a lot for us not to support it. Yeah. Like if they like represented the narrative completely incorrectly. You know, I think that's what I realised through this was that we have always been exposed to particular narratives, as we saw from those like role descriptions, right. But it kind of led me to think like, actually, not all Asians are the same. And not all of our stories are the same, like they're varied and diverse experiences, especially, you know, Asian Americans versus Asian Australians. And I think the more representation that we get of these diverse experiences, there's less pressure, I guess, on individuals to try and represent the whole Asian race. So like one character to represent the entirety. And, like we're multifaceted, just like, you know, westernised countries are as well. So I think it's like the fact that we need to kind of celebrate the fact that there are more stories that we need to tell.
Tracy
People are so different, like Asians are so different from each other, and like I wish there was more that we could relate to as Asian Australians. Sometimes I'm like the only thing I can, at the moment, there's only like Asian American stuff. But you we can't fully relate to the Asian American experience.
Wendy
Yeah, yeah. But it's the media that we have easily accessible at the moment. I think on the flip side, like thinking about how Asian representation impacts us, as individuals, like, I think that it kind of drives me to think about why do I think this way? Or why do I act this way? Why do I feel this way? Or, like having, I guess, more confidence in myself to try and like, connect with others based on my Asian culture and being proud of it. And it feels like it's easier to do that when it's on screen, but also like allowing people with non-Asian backgrounds to be more curious about us. But also, like, want to know more about what our culture is like, as well.
Tracy
Yeah, normalising our rituals, our culture, seeing on the big screen. So when we're doing something that's maybe related to our Chinese culture, people aren't looking at us and going, why are you doing that?
Wendy
Yeah, I mean, so I think it relates to what I was saying earlier about, like, you can't be what you can't see. So if you don't have examples of, you know, the types of dreams that you can attain, or the types of, like role models that you can, like, follow, your capability is like limited in terms of like, what do you think that you can do? And what needs to continue happening? To continue, like challenging the landscape that we're building now, is, I think there needs to be more like diverse stories of more like different Asian experiences. So not just limited to stories about what it's like being a refugee or the trauma attached to that, or like arranged marriages, and I'm sure there's so many other different themes, but also like intersectional stories, so like, you know, people grappling with their identity, LGBTQI+ space, disability. And then like stories that subvert stereotypes, so I think we see this a lot more now on Netflix, but like coming of age stories. So having like more than just obviously one Asian actor as the main cast, and also with like, a focus on issues or their personal issues are not because of them being Asian.
Tracy
They're just human. They're having human issues, not Asian issues. And then in terms of like, what can we do? Personally, I guess we can start putting a more conscious effort into supporting Asian representation in media, particularly for us, I guess, maybe in the Asian Australian space, which I think is, you know, still tiny compared to the Asian American space. Let's start with like, who are your favourites to follow?
Wendy
So I follow like a mix of like, actors, musicians and like podcasters and also YouTubers as well. So one from each category. So Gemma Chan is one of my favourites. Nikki, who is an 88 Rising musician. I'm sure people know her, she has an Indonesian background. The Asian Boss Girls are my favourite, like Janet and Melody, mainly because they're all in different life stages and they're so transparent about sharing their experiences. And I feel like they're really the trio that kicked off like Asians in the podcasting.
Tracy
Yeah, I think so as well. Yeah, I really agree.
Wendy
Yeah, they were the first people that I was exposed to who started talking about like, what it's like to be an Asian woman in America.
Tracy
I agree. And I think it was the first time I saw a podcast that I could relate to and then it kind of made us think, what's the Australian version of that?
Wendy
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I linked it to us when when I started listening. I have a vivid memory of that. And then lastly, one of my favourite YouTubers, Sophia Chang. I feel like she's also really real about her experiences living in LA as well as a influencer. How about you?
Tracy
For me, I kind of focused all mine on the Australian space. So Michelle Law obviously, her brother Benjamin Law, like the Law family are so talented. There's Tammy Law who's a photographer. But like, Benjamin Law has a SBS show called The Family Law about an experience of a Chinese Australian family living in Brisbane loosely based off their lives. So I would recommend watching that. I love anything that you know, Michelle Law or Benjamin Law does. Obviously Natalie Tran, Community Channel. Like she's been so fundamental in terms of like our upbringing, but also now transitioning into more of like the media space. I think she's very like vocal in terms of her thoughts about Asian representation but also maintaining that comedic side of her, which is amazing. And then last one I put is Melissa Leong. I feel like them bringing her onto MasterChef has been like so good for the show. Like in terms of representing diverse cultures and diverse foods in MasterChef, like, it's been so nice to see an Asian woman be a judge and really understand the nuances of the food that she's eating. For her, it genuinely evokes emotions of like growing up in Singapore, and like her parents and stuff like that. And she's been very vocal in calling out like racism and like, bad representation and stuff like that as well.
Wendy
Yeah. And she tells her narrative, or like her thoughts, obviously, because she's, like a food critic writer, right? The way that she expresses herself on the show, I feel like, it's so different than having like an Asian contestant. You know, because it's like, opinion based. And that just gives us so much more power.
Tracy
She's so like, I don't know, like, I want to say proud of her culture. And she's not afraid to show up for her culture. That makes sense.
Wendy
Yeah. But she doesn't do it in a way that's like abrasive, you know. As you were going through your list, it made me realise that I follow a lot of people who are based in like the US or the UK. And I was trying to think of like, do I follow any Asian Australian people in the media? And I don't think so. Like, I'd have to go through my following. I feel like it's so hard to even think of anyone, or anyone that comes to mind straightaway.
Tracy
Yeah. There's like a lot of, I guess, microinfluencers that we follow, like food bloggers and stuff like that, but there's like, a handful of influencers, I guess, that are Asian Australia, but definitely not as big as Asian American.
Wendy
I think apart from following, consuming more media that has, like a diverse representation of Asians is really important, not only like, globally, but like locally as well. And I think recently, I came across an article, there's a new show called Here Out West and it was casted on ABC. I'm yet to watch it, but like, you know, making that more of a goal to like, watch or consume that type of media. But the thing that was stuck out for me that is it was based in Southwest Sydney, and also has local actors as well from an Asian Australian background. So I think consuming that type of media. I found it really hard to think about, like musicians like Asian Australian musicians.
Tracy
I don't know any. Dami Im again. Yeah, there must be some. I just don't know.
Wendy
Yeah, my assumption is like, it feels like it's so hard to just make it in Australia.
Tracy
That's true. Guy Sebastian was the last one to make it here.
Wendy
Yeah, like he made it to Eurovision right? And apparently like people are really obsessed with Kylie Minogue overseas in the UK. But yeah, I think going trying to go through the list, I was just like, shocked, I guess, because I couldn't think of people.
Tracy
Yeah, but there must be like, I guess local rappers, artists and stuff like that kind of are doing more like, local stuff that hasn't yet popped off yet.
Wendy
Yeah. Do you follow any Asian Australian influences?
Tracy
This one's actually harder to find, obviously, than American influences. But yeah, there are a couple of few that I follow. The OG Jessica Tran. She lives in New York now. But she started out as a blogger. I think she used to live in Yennora or something. You know, Margaret Zhang, Nicole Warne. Like, there's just not that many to be honest.
Wendy
When I was thinking about it, I was just calling out like names such as like, Tara Milk Tea, Annie Nguyen from Anna's Bucket List, and Yan Yan Chan they're all in the fashion space. I can't really think of anyone in the media space that I follow.
Tracy
Yeah. But then I know, that there definitely is, you know, prominent people in that space. But I guess we didn't grow up with that. So we're not as exposed to that compared to other like, people that we've listed. I think maybe it's not as mainstream. And it's still like kind of showing that there's so much, like Australia still has a very, very, very long way to go. Like considering how it is difficult for us. And I think we're still lagging behind in terms of representation. There's actually like an article here from SBS that we can link later saying how Asian Australian actors are actually finding more success in America. So, because they're not finding able to find roles for them in Australia, or roles that are not like minor or stereotypical roles, they're actually moving to America, because it's the time, like America is actually open to it now. And there's actually more roles for them. And they actually are succeeding and making it big. So it's interesting that Australia hasn't gotten there yet. But it is happening slowly.
Wendy
Yeah. But as always, like Australia is so far behind in everything.
Tracy
Yeah, I definitely want to see more Asian Australian experiences on the big screen and the mainstream, like, one that I would recommend is Ronny Chieng's International Student. It is so funny. I think it's such a great example of like, a relatable show to Asian Australians, like the nuances of Ronny Chieng, as an international student in Australia. Like, it's so funny. I would recommend it. I would love to see more shows like that.
Wendy
Because that's another type of experience, right? Being an international student. Whereas I feel like everything that we've seen has been, well, everything that we've grown up with has been a very specific role type, or story that's being told.
Tracy
I also want to talk about Asian Australian representation in reality TV shows, because I feel like actually, when I think about what the Australian influencer space looks like, they're all just people from TV.
Wendy
Yeah, reality TV.
Tracy
Yeah, once you're in the Bachelor, you'll have a podcast, you will have a radio show, you'll have a fashion line. But we've never really seen diversity or those that are Asians in those spaces. Like I think Brooke Blurton being like the first indigenous woman on The Bachelorette, that was amazing but I would love to see more. And in the Asian space as well.
Wendy
Yeah, there's always that one Asian being casted. And you never see them get screen time.
Tracy
And they look so lame. Like, I don't know why, but it's like they're just not portrayed in a nice way.
Wendy
And you know that all of that is editing.
Tracy
Yeah exactly.
Wendy
I wonder if it's like the editors themselves, people who are working behind the scenes, don't understand how to portray them.
Tracy
Yeah. Also, how about like Married at First Sight, Selina. I think she was Cambodian Australian. And she got partnered with a white guy. And he basically said that she wasn't his typical type. And then she straight out asked like, is it because I'm Asian? He just said yes. I don't know. It's just so awkward. Why does the one Asian that comes on the show, like why is there controversy over her race? Her storyline is because she's Asian, so she's not attractive.
Wendy
Frustration.
Tracy
Yeah. But on the plus side, MasterChef has been doing really well in representation in recent times. I would say like, ever since they brought on the new judges. I think it's been such a lovely show in showcasing the food scene in Australia in a very unique way. Yeah, like Indian culture, Chinese culture, Vietnamese culture. Like we're getting a lot of that come through in MasterChef and it's so like, wholesome and like emotional and you're like, oh my god, people are from Cabramatta, they're cooking meals and making judges cry. Like it's just so lovely to see.
Wendy
Yeah, but the premise on what that's built on it's built around food, which is so important to every culture you know, so I feel like it's different compared to reality TV show about love. I feel like Asians are casted as a means to meet a quota in that sense.
Tracy
Yeah, whereas Asians in food that makes sense to people. Asian food, that makes sense. Asians in love, what is that? Asians in what are we?
Wendy
Yeah. Well, I think like what that's shown me personally like doing this, I personally felt like wow, there's a lot for me to learn and unlearn as well. There's a lot for me to grow my like self awareness about and what I need to like consciously do in order to get better at supporting like Asian Australians or Asian Americans in the media. But I think like my hopes for the future is like, we've talked a lot about Asian American representation today in the media because that's what's really prominent and obviously Australia is behind but what I would really love to do on our podcast sometime in the near future, is like talk to someone who either like works in media or is exposed to it and get their perspective on what it's like being in the industry because I think that would provide a whole lot more insight than what we've like started to talk about today. If you have any people that we can talk to in this industry, or someone who can offer that kind of perspective, like, I think be really great to get them on the poddy. Well, that's a wrap. Now let's jump into our dinner table questions.
Tracy
Sweet. So the first question is, what is your go to meal to cook for guests?
Wendy
I'm not a great cook. Let me preface with that.
Tracy
I don't cook either. This question is not for us.
Wendy
But I wrote this question. Um, I think I would cook like something Italian because it's always easy to get that right. I think but you know, when we were kids, we used to make pasta bake and tuna bake. Yeah, I feel like I'd do that. How about you?
Tracy
I'll probably do dessert or something. Like a caramel slice or something like that.
Wendy
Yeah. What's your alcoholic drink of choice?
Tracy
I don't actually have one. I was actually thinking about that, how everyone has like a fancy drink they order at the the bar or whatever. I don't really have a fancy cocktail order. I'll go for a cider. I'm a big fan of spritz. Anything spritz. Aperol Spritz.
Wendy
Yeah, like I feel like Aperol Spritz is so deceiving. Because it looks so yummy but it's bitter. Yeah, that's what I don't like about it.
Tracy
Yeah, and a G&T obviously.
Wendy
Oh, yeah. I love a good G&T and I love the ones that's got elderflower mixed into it.
Tracy
Yeah. I've been, also like, craving wines a lot these days. A glass of wine.
Wendy
You know what I realised at Mary's wedding? Our friend's wedding. Because they had wines, right? And I had to go to the wine tasting. I was like, Wow, I really like white wine. So now I'm like, Yeah, more of a white person.
Tracy
Yeah, that's what I used to say. But now I kind of like reds now. Yeah, old age. Okay, the last thing. What is something you're known for?
Wendy
Well, if I'm thinking amongst like, my friends, like wearing beige, and all white.
Tracy
I think we all wear white all the time.
Wendy
Yeah. But I feel like beige is very much my thing. Like my colour palette is very, very obvious. Like a lot of people look at like things or clothes and they're like, Oh, that's so you.
Tracy
Yeah. You're also known for like injuring yourself.
Wendy
Hey, that's the other part I don't want to be known for. But yeah, basically. How about you?
Tracy
My laugh. My seal laugh. Catch it in episodes.
Wendy
Yeah, when it's something really hilarious.
Tracy
Oh, more than my laugh, my loudness. Yeah, I talk really loud. People are always like, I heard you from the other room, I heard you from down the hallway, I heard you from the above level. I'm like, everyone shut up.
Wendy
It's funny, because my mum has said the same thing. But I think your family's just loud, like your dad is loud.
Tracy
I think my family is loud and being part of a big family, you gotta talk loud or you're not heard. Anyway, so that's the end of our episode. Thank you everyone for tuning in. I really loved actually talking about this topic. I think it made us realise a lot of things about our knowledge, about Asian representation in the media. We learned a lot. Like, it's not a topic that we've both really like dwelved into. But it's a nice kind of like scratch on the surface of thinking about Asian Australian representation in media. So definitely something we want to learn more about. So please drop us a DM or comment if you have any builds or any recommendations for us. We'd love to hear it. Thank you again for listening. And until next time, bye!