Quiet Quitting in a Culture of Hustle
EPISODE 21 — 10 SEPTEMBER 2022
“They’re not willing to accept that the way work has always been, is actually changing now. And I honestly think that the organisations that will thrive, are the ones that can buy into this and make an opportunity out of it.”
ABOUT THE EP
With the rise of movements like Quiet Quitting, the Great Resignation and #TangPing, we reflect on how our Asian Australian values has influenced our relationship with work. When all we've known is to hustle, what do we unlearn and what do we embrace? Join us as we debate the controversies of quiet quitting versus hustle culture.
THE DETAILS
Quiet quitting as the opposite of hustle mentality
The post-pandemic transformation of our relationship with work and hustle culture
How quiet quitting originated from China's 'lying flat' movement
Is quitting a good or a bad thing? Why are we resisting it?
The role of privilege and our cultural values in quiet quitting
REFERENCES & RESOURCES
- Employment Hero Wellness at Work Report 2022
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Tracy
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to our podcast. Season 2! Brand new spanking season.
Wendy
Yes! We're back on our old stomping ground at my parents' house because we have some plans in the area after. So it feels a bit nostalgic, right?
Tracy
Yeah, it's like back to where we started. Except this time, we have a proper table. It feels like we're in a office setup.
Wendy
Yeah, we have space and we're not on the floor.
Tracy
Yeah, if you guys have seen our Season 1 Behind the Scenes reels that we put up, you'll see that we literally started from the bottom, now we're here.
Wendy
So we've like risen in height.
Tracy
A metre above the ground now.
Wendy
But lately, we've been doing a lot of planning around what we want this next season to be. Don't worry, not much is going to change. But hopefully we're going to have obviously more guests. A new website as well, which should be launched by now. And yeah, we have some cool stuff on there, like our episodes plus the transcripts. So making it a little bit more accessible for everyone. But also, hopefully in the future, we can do more like blog type stuff.
Yeah. More collabs coming up this season.
Yes, a very exciting one. And we've like planned throughout the end of this year, but also, like, beginning of next year through to I think May-ish as well, which is crazy. When we started it was like we struggled to find episode ideas, and now it's like we just have so many.
Tracy
Yeah, I'm actually very, very pumped right now to be recording. Like I kind of miss recording and just sitting down and chatting. And I feel like that, you know, the excitement that we had at the very beginning of the season, or the first time we did this, where it's like, there's so much to do, like as I was planning for our season launch, more ideas came to my head. So, I'm very excited for what's to come for us. Shall we do a little life update? What have you been up to Wendy?
Wendy
Um, so because it is winter in Sydney, I went to the snows recently and picked up snowboarding again, which was fun, because I felt like I learned what I wanted to learn this time. But I was so tired. Like, I feel like I really felt my age.
Tracy
My knees, my back.
Wendy
Yeah, like straight up everything. My neck. Strained my neck on the first day.
Tracy
I'm feeling my age these days too, my neck is quite strained right now.
Wendy
We gotta get massages after this. But excitingly, I also had one of my closest friends wedding and I was part of the bridal party. So shout out to Mary. And Tracy was also there. Yeah, so it was like one of the first people from high school to get married. And it was like pretty crazy. Like, it was a very emotional experience. But it also honestly made everything feel like really real in terms of like the age period that we're in at the moment.
Tracy
Yeah, it felt like really adult. I was like, Oh, this is what it feels like to be in like your mid to late 20s.
Wendy
Yeah, like everyone's gonna get married, everyone's gonna get engaged.
Tracy
It was nice though. I think it was really nice to see everyone. It reminded me of like school formal.
Wendy
But we've elevated.
Tracy
We've elevated, we're drinking like wine. Very mature. Like we matured nicely, I think, in the last 10 years since we left high school.
Wendy
Yeah, but that's been my life so far. I like recovered from my ankle injury. Yeah, I don't think I mentioned it on the podcast. I'm sorry this is obviously not a linear timeline. But before the wedding and the snowboarding trip, we had like a netball tournament like Tracy and I had a netball tournament and I stepped on someone's foot and sprained my ankle in the second game.
Tracy
And this was her first time back since she got a concussion from playing netball.
Wendy
Yeah, like honestly what's new, I don't think netball is my sports. So sad. But it was the same ankle that I like messed up on exchange and that put me in a cost.
If any one wants to sponsor us, like aged care support, or physio.
Yeah, but actually recovered very quickly considering what it looked like. Like it was a straight up balloon.
Tracy
Yeah, we had to push Wendy on a wheelchair.
Wendy
Yeah, I was like a spectator on a wheelchair.
Tracy
Again. Not the first time pushing Wendy around in a wheelchair.
Wendy
Hey, at least I didn't go to hospital, right? So I think that was a positive. What's been happening with you?
Tracy
I'm just thinking about you in the wheelchair.
Wendy
I'm going to insert a graphic.
Tracy
Yeah, that's so funny. My life has not been as eventful as Wendy's. I feel quite zen at the moment, actually. Weirdly, yeah, well, you know, it's been chaotic at work. But I feel very zen about it in terms of, I went away to a cabin house or a tiny house maybe like two three weeks ago. But when I went, I didn't have a lot of expectations. But now, just doing nothing for four days, and being out in a cabin, it was on a farm in the middle of nowhere, in Moss Vale, down in the southern highlands. And just like cooking, and eating, and like sleeping in reading, walking around, you know, visiting small towns, like the lifestyle was so nice. And I feel very like zen. And after that, I came back, and I just felt like, nothing's gonna bother me.
Wendy
Nothing can touch me now, I'd been in the country.
Tracy
Nothing can touch me, I'm one with nature. I don't know how long this is going to last. But I think it was a reminder to like, appreciate the little things in life. So now that I'm back, kind of back into normal life now, I feel like I'm still holding on to that idea of, I'm going to try to like new and mix things up in my day to make things exciting, you know, I don't have to be doing anything big every day to have an exciting day. So for example, I've been like changing it up and working from a cafe or working from a library. And waking up like, you know, half an hour earlier than I normally would to do like a 15 minute yoga yoga session or like, ab workout. It's only been two weeks so let's see how long this lasts. But I feel like zen and now at work, you know, stresses happen, but I'm just kind of like, it's okay. Like, it's not the end of the world. It's like more so, I care about it, obviously, I will deal with it, but I don't want to get emotionally attached to it. And, actually, good segue.
Wendy
I was gonna say very fitting. Yeah, this episode. Because we're gonna talk about the hustle mentality and the rise of quiet quitting from our Asian Australian lens. So apparently, this has been viral on Tiktok. I mean, it hasn't been on my For You page. But everyone's talking about it. Like ever since we put this on our radar to record an episode about it, we've been seeing it a lot more.
Tracy
Yeah, quiet quitting is trending. It's going viral. Everyone's starting to talk about it. The first time I heard about it was actually like, right before I left for this getaway that went to, from a client actually. I was on a photo shoot, and a client kind of brought up quiet quitting. I was like, What the heck is quiet quitting? I've never heard of it. And I think a lot of people still don't know about it. Like, I've recently talked to my cousins about it. And they're like, what's quiet quitting? So for those who don't know what quiet quitting is, it's basically, you're not quitting your job, but you're quitting the idea of going above and beyond, and you're just doing just enough at work. So it was a video that went viral on Tiktok. And it's kind of like taken heaps and heaps of views worldwide. And I think it's kind of really resonated with the younger generation, so Gen Z, maybe millennials, and you're going to start seeing a lot more on media. It's permeating into the mainstream media, everyone's talking about it, in terms of, is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? But it's basically unsubscribing to hustle culture mentality, and just doing what you're assigned to do, and that's it, you're not going above and beyond. You're leaving at five everyday, you do nine to five, you're just doing your job description, and that's it. It's kind of people realising, why am I working so hard? Like, why am I so stressed at work? Why am I going above and beyond? Like, what is a for? Yeah, people are literally doing the bare minimum and living their lives outside of work. So that's what kind of the idea of quiet quitting is.
Wendy
Yeah, I feel like it's like the direct opposite of like, the hustle culture we grew up with, right. So I feel like that was about constantly working. Like everything was about work. It was like the centre of your life. And it was the only thing that you talked about. And if things were crap at work, it's like, I'll just put up with it push through, you know, the shit, and trying to, like, just get to the end. Yeah. But it's also like the belief that you can succeed and achieve anything you want if you work hard enough. So for example, working long hours, which is associated with climbing the corporate ladder, which I can definitely resonate with, and like, getting rich quick, like in the shortest amount of time. So it's like, also like people talking about, oh, I want to retire before 30.
Tracy
Yeah, I think hustle culture is so big. It's still very big and I think it was what all we knew for a period of time. Yeah, pre-pandemic, probably.
Wendy
Yeah. It's like for me, it was like a sense of pride. Definitely. Like just being busy constantly. It's like, oh, how you been? It's like, I'm so busy, I've been doing this, this and this. It's like, filling your plate with as much as possible. And it's like, that's what defines you.
Tracy
Yeah, exactly. And it's like, I think there was a period of time when it was like, hustle, you know, hustle now or, like, if you work hard, you'll get everything that you want. You want to be rich, just work hard. So people are generally like hustling at work, hustling outside of work, side hustles. Like everything was about hustling. So quiet quitting is really the opposite of hustling or hustle mentality. Yeah, I thought it was a good idea for us to talk about quiet quitting and hustle culture with from our lens, because I feel like it's an interesting kind of intersection with our Asian Australian values and culture. Because I think coming from Asian backgrounds, potentially, we might lean towards more hustling, I would say like, I think our parents kind of teach us like hustle mentality and like hard work. But then now this rise of quiet quitting, I think, for us, it's an interesting topic, which is why we want to talk about in terms of how this kind of relates without Asian values.
Wendy
Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. Because that's what I feel like I'm realising now. Like, why did I try and keep myself so busy? From high school all the way until now, before the pandemic. It's like, why? What was I working so hard? And I feel like it was never spoken between my parents and I, but I just saw it in the way that they worked in the way that, you know, they applied themselves, not just to the everyday world, but just life in general, like trying to hustle so that we could have, you know, a better future. But then I feel like subconsciously, that was, like, ingrained in me. And then I saw it in my sisters. And then that kind of led me to always want to do extracurriculars in school, for example, or, you know, just do as much as I can until I was like, burnt out. And then by the time you're burnt out, it's like, you don't realise how much all like, how, what was the reason for that? And it was because you were just trying to hustle as hard as you could. But you never stopped to think about why.
Tracy
Yeah, that's very true. It felt like, we were in a, you know, simulation. Like the matrix. Like, obviously, our parents hustle, because had a genuine reason to hustle in terms of like, it literally was for their livelihoods. And those were the habits and behaviours that we modelled from them. But now we're probably in a better space in terms of financially, you know, options, opportunities wise. And like Wendy said, it's interesting when you step out of that, and it's like, hang on, why am I like, hustling so hard?
Wendy
Why am I killing myself? Yeah. It wasn't until I think, like COVID hit that, you know, you're forced to find productivity within, like, a certain radius. Like, within the five kilometres that you have, right? Or it wasn't until like, you had to actually pause and think about, okay, I have to find ways to entertain myself, or do things a little bit different differently now. And I feel like once, something as big as a pandemic hits, you don't really pause to think about what is the purpose of what I'm doing? And why am I always doing it that way? Like, what is the mindset that I've adopted? Where did it come from?
Tracy
Yeah, what were you like pre-pandemic, in terms of your relationship with work and hustle culture?
Wendy
I think, recently, I had dinner with a friend and he was like, you know, you actually really different now, like you so much more relaxed. And I was like, wow, that's such an interesting observation to have, because this is a friend that I don't see often. And he's a friend that I worked with at Deloitte. And I feel like when I first went into full time work, which was at Deloitte, and being in Big 4, the culture that it breeds, I just consumed it, and I didn't even question like, you know, can I do things differently to the culture that this place is kind of like, pushing on to me, you know? And so because of that, I think I was just like hustling constantly. And the fact that you're in a grad cohort, because I started off as a grad there. I kind of applied this expectation to myself that I needed to do extra.
Tracy
It's like being the rat race. You're competing against each other as well.
Wendy
Yeah. And now that I'm outside of it, like not being in that corporation anymore, and being at a workplace that actually values mental health and work life balance, I look at it now. And I'm just like, wow, like, who told me that I needed to complain, who told me that I needed to hustle that hard. And it was just because of the environment that I was in. So now being you know, two years on from that, starting that role and you know, going through the pandemic, I think I'm fine. I've found more value in kind of just being chill, trying to not put like work at the centre of everything that I do.
Tracy
And do you think that's because of the pandemic? Or is it because of age?
Wendy
I don't think it's age. I honestly think it's just like, your life events, your life experiences, but also the people that I'm surrounding myself with, like, I found that I'm the type of person who kind of not changes myself to fit in. But I think you I really put in an effort to try and like learn the habits, or the behaviours of the people that I'm working with. Yeah, you know, and trying to like, mirror that because I think at Future Friendly, where I am right now, like, we get mental health days off, right. And I think because of policies like that, I'm making more of an effort to try and be conscious of what other people might be going through in their life. And I feel like that's a part of the pandemic is what people seeing people in their home situations. Yeah, and realising like, oh, we're actually all humans, so let's put, like, you know, human value first before, like doing the work.
Tracy
Yeah, I think the pandemic has definitely put a spotlight on mental health and work well being and probably dealing with burnout and preventing it at work. Like I think, I don't remember a time where we've had this much focus industry wide or like on the news or just socially being aware of people's boundaries and balance and health. Yes, I think it's really nice to see companies move towards putting mental health as a priority as well.
Wendy
Yeah, it's hard to speak to it because I honestly think that because we've only been in the industry for four years, or three years. It's hard to kind of say how much it's changed over the years.
Tracy
But I have seen in terms of like, I've been in the same workplace pre and post pandemic. Yeah, and I've definitely seen that specific company, put in heaps of like, initiatives to help people with their mental health because of the pandemic.
Wendy
Yeah. I think towards the end of like, my career at Deloitte, I was starting to see it more like, I used to be very afraid to ask to work from home. Like, there was so much anxiety around. And if you asked to work from home, you had to be really quick, where you had to be like, pregnant or something. Like, your leg had to be broken. And, you know, because of the pandemic, we really quickly switched our mentality and the way that we work and the things that we value or the things that we realise about other people. It's now like flipped on its head. And now it's, you know, there's more, I guess, importance placed on it.
Tracy
What would you identify more with, like, we'll talk more about quiet quitting later, but in terms of like, the scale of hustle mentality, hustle culture to like, quiet quitting, like, where would you put yourself on? Well, how would you identify now your relationship with work?
Wendy
Maybe in the middle? I hate to be that person that's like, oh, I constantly. I'm also a Libra. So you know, I like balance.
Tracy
I don't know what that means. Oh, the scale? Sorry.
Wendy
No, but I think it's because like, lately, I've been reflecting on, like, my performance, I put that in quotation marks because I don't think there's, I don't value performance as much as I used to, because everything was performance driven when I was at Deloitte, like your metrics of like, are you on a client? Or are you on the bench like that shit? Honestly, like drilled into your subconscious? It made me think, Oh, my God, am I performing enough? Now it's more so like, falling in love with design, again, because I'm in a design specialist role in product design. So I feel like because of that, I'm trying to, I guess, enjoy the process of being in a new position. And learning again, but also feeling like I can be kind to myself if I don't know things, right. Whereas like, I think when you're in hustle culture, or in a environment that values that you feel like you need to know everything you feel like you need to make every effort that you can to be the best, or have the best knowledge. So on top of that, I'm also valuing the other end of quite quitting, where it's like, some days, I know that I don't feel my best. So I can only put in, say, 60%, but that's okay. But I feel like I'm more honest with people about it. Like, I'm having like a pretty rough day not feeling great. And the company that I'm at now, they really value like flex time. So if you're feeling shit for an afternoon, you can just say, going offline for the afternoon because I'm not feeling great. And because other people around me are doing it. I'm like, oh, actually gives me permission to do that, too. You know, and you start to notice these things about yourself. And you don't feel as guilty. So that's why I'm kind of like, in between, it changes throughout the week. If I was to put like, you know, Monday to Friday, maybe Monday I'm like full hustling but by Friday, like I'm gassed out, right. Yeah. How about you?
Tracy
I would probably say the same. Boring answer, but then in terms of like quiet quitting, I don't identify with that, or I don't resonate with that as much as I resonate with the fact that, like, balance is important, setting boundaries between work, I guess, personal priorities and personal priorities. But at heart, I'm still a hard worker. Yeah, like hard work is still very important to me. Whereas I feel like quiet quitting, it sounds like it's like, oh, you're just doing what you're given and you don't want to go above and beyond. But like, for me, I feel like I'm an above and beyond person, but that could also just be how I grew up. So I think when I was younger, I was definitely more subscribed to hustle mentality. Like, my mantra to myself was always work hard play hard, or like, hard work now, pays off later. Yeah, that literally drove me all through high school and throughout uni. I'm like, work hard now. Work hard now. And then just like, now I'm realising, like, why like, can I just enjoy myself now? Like, I can work hard, but I can still also have balance, if that makes sense. But I don't have to work hard at the expense of everything else in my life. It's all about balance. And I think previously, I was so guilty of not taking all the opportunities available to me. Like, I feel like I just said yes to everything. Because I felt like I'd fall behind if I don't say yes to things, or I won't be able to be successful. So I like took every opportunity did everything. But now I'm kind of like, now I can say no to things. And it doesn't really bother me like, yeah, it's balance, you know. So I think it's a journey with finding balance, I would say.
Wendy
Yeah, I think that's really nice. There's some things that you said that I want to pick up on, like the first is 100% vouch that hard work pays off later was your mantra in High School. But I also think that like, at the centre of it, it's not work drives everything in your life. When people ask me how you doing, I don't start with work anymore. Like, and that's because I've just found enjoyment in other parts of my life as well. And even though you know, we're at work, say 40 hours of the week, it's not what our entire like, existence should be based on, you know, which is what it was before, when we started full time work. And I think similarly, like, in high school, I was always just thinking, Okay, you know, I've become a prefect, I've done like, environmental club, like, what else can I do? And yeah, geography club being like, sport house captain, like, holy shit, I did a lot, you know. But on top of that, it's like, now that I reflect on it, I knew that I was doing it because like, you want to have the best like, record that you can for work and uni and whatever. But I just signed up for it without even questioning it. And yet, to your point about saying yes to everything, I don't think we ever stopped to think about like, why are we doing this thing? There was never a moment of like, what is my intention? What is the purpose of this? What am I going to get? I was just like, yes, yes, yes.
Tracy
I feel like for me, it was like, almost like a blanket rule that like, what would I lose from taking this opportunity? Like, there's more for me to gain even though I don't know what I'm getting? It's just like, this opportunity is a chance for me to grow as a person professionally and personally, like, that used to be my like the thing in my head, but I never went to the next step like, what like what areas is this contributing in my personal growth? And do I want it?
Wendy
Yeah, on top of that, as well, I think we did a lot of things in high school to get to the next step, which was uni, right? And then we got to uni. And it's like, okay, now I have my full time career to work towards. Then when I got to my full time career, I remember the entire year of 2019, I really struggled with that. Like, there were times where I was like, couldn't sleep, I was crying. And that was the most unhappy year of my life. And it was mainly because I was like, wow, this is it. This is what I've worked towards, and this is the shit that I'm in? Excuse my French, but honestly, that was how I felt.
Tracy
Like universe, why am I here?
Wendy
Yeah, I was just like, What the hell am I doing? Like, why do I feel so stressed and unhappy in my job, but I was like, I can't feel like that because this is an opportunity that people would kill for. And I can honestly just reflect on that now, because I've moved into a company where I'm very happy. And I feel like my entire life is not based on work. But in that moment, I did what I knew best, which was trying to do a million other things to try and find, like a new goal to add, like, try and reach, you know, and what I honestly think about when I think about all of these experiences that I have is like, you know how the people say like, oh, it's not about the destination, it's about the journey? Honestly, the whole time, like growing up, I always just thought about the destination.
Tracy
Me too. I was like, that quote is stupid, it's all about the destination.
Wendy
When I get there, I'm gonna be so happy, right? But I honestly feel like I've had moments where when I've hit big milestones I feel kind of empty. Like, you know, when you hear, say, like graduation or even when I bought my place, I was like, oh, okay, well, like I've reached this now. So cool. What's next? You know? And that was a mentality that I had. Whereas for the past couple of months, now it's less so about what's next? What should I do next? What can I define myself by or what can other people like know me for? Now it's more so like, I'm just chilling. And that's okay. And it's like being kind to yourself to know that. You don't need an achievement to define who you are. But for a lot of the time, like, I feel like I was proud that people knew that I was busy. Or knew that I had like, a tonne of shit on my plate. But now it's just like, I'm chilling. And that's cool.
Tracy
And I think what's interesting is that when people say I'm chilling, that's like, now looked positively upon these days. People are like, Oh, that's so cool, we love being zen. And yeah, like, it's been interesting to see how society's values have changed. Whereas before, people were like, I'm so busy and people look up to them. Like, they're always doing something, I want to be like that. But now people want to be not busy. Yeah, they want to be zen, they want to do nothing. So this is where the transition to quiet quitting, I think kind of came up in terms of like when the pandemic hit, I think it was linked to a lot of people kind of really reflecting on their life as it was before the pandemic. I think there's been also like a noticeable fall in job satisfaction. So, people are feeling underappreciated and under compensated at work. And then also like there's this change of how people relate to work post pandemic. So, like I said, I think being forced to work at home, people realise how good freedom is and how good not having to be in the office is. So I think this was really the trigger for trends like quiet quitting, the great resignation, wellbeing, those trends kind of were born out of the pandemic, because people actually had time to reflect on their ways of working. So ,to go even deeper into where quiet quitting was derived from, so apparently, there was a like a movement in China in like 2021, like in April, called Tang Ping. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's like it means lying flat.
Wendy
Damn, I want to do that right now.
Tracy
Yeah, literally just be horizontal. Like that was literally what the movement was about. Like, there was a factory worker. I think he was 26 at the time, and he wrote a blog post about how he quit his job. He cycled like 2100 kilometres, from Sichuan to Tibet. And like, just got by by just taking odd jobs. So like, $6 a day or something like that. And he called it, lying flat, and he was like, advocating this lifestyle of just chilling, living minimally, not working anymore. And yeah, it's so interesting. I've heard that really took off in China, especially China as a place that's very like efficiency and it's all about work. Like they've got this narrative of working hard. Do you know the 996? So it's like working nine to nine for six days a week. So that's their work culture. And it's all about like working hard getting married, having kids. And then this movement of lying flat is actually quite counter, what do you call it? Productive, counter culture? It's a counterculture movement in terms of like it's quite anti-government. So, it's actually a big deal in China actually. I think they've started banning posts and media about lying flat.
Wendy
Now why am I not surprised? Yeah, that's why like, people think Australians are lazy though. Like you know when we apparently when people when Australians go work overseas saying like the US or in London because a lot of Aussies go there. Apparently like Australians are perceived as being like quite lazy because of the work balance like lifestyle. Yeah, I don't know if it's changed much since the pandemic but I wonder if like with quiet quitting now, like, if there's gonna be more, I guess, understanding between work cultures, like now that that's that started in China? Like I would expect something like that to come from like a more westernised country. So, the fact that it's come from China is like, super interesting. But yeah, I also thought about another thing when you were talking through this is like, I feel like it's more acceptable now or it's less scary to leave your job and to jump into the unknown, to take on like to just leave a job and then just think, Okay, what am I going to do with myself now, I'm just gonna go and find new opportunities. Like it's not the end of the world to leave a job that you're unhappy in. Whereas previously, I think it was like, Oh, if I leave this job I'm going to be, my whole life is going to be unstable. I'm not going to have like, anything to live off. And that story that you just told, I feel like kind of just promotes that. Like, it's okay to leave your job. Like it's not the end of the world.
Tracy
Yeah, especially like, I think it's quite interesting, especially in a culture like in China. This guy doing this is quite like radical. In terms of like, you know, their way of working over there. So, obviously, like movements, like, you know, lying flat, quiet quitting, thanks to the pandemic, I think these things have really come up to the forefront. And I just want to know, like, how has it the pandemic changed your relationship with wellbeing and burnout?
Wendy
I've prioritised like other parts of my life, because there was more time for it. I really thought about how do I want to spend my time alone? Like in solitude? What are the things that I want to prioritise? I started prioritising like working out more and moving more, because as a result of not going to the office, you move less. So then that became a priority for me. But in addition to that, I think the biggest thing for me was realising that I spend 40 hours of my week at work, why don't I work in a job that I actually want to do? Why am I working for a job that's making me feel burnt out? Why am I working in a job that I feel unhappy waking up for every day? And it was like the push that I needed to try and go and find other opportunities? And I remember thinking like, Oh, should I really leave this job? Like, I'm, like, so close to getting promoted. I know, if I leave this job, my friends are going to get promoted before me, like become a senior consultant before me. And it was a really huge step to get out of that. Because I think the pandemic made me realise that, no, I need to put my mental health first. And I can always climb the ladder when I'm ready for it, you know, and the ladder will always be there. Like no one's taking this ladder away from me, you might be just like, one rung behind, but that's fine. But that's what I mean. Like it was permission to myself to leave a job that made me unhappy, mainly because I wanted to prioritise my mental health first.
Tracy
Wow, we love that. Yeah, I feel similar. I think there's a lock down kind of forced me to reflect on my priorities and slow down like it definitely was like, I don't know, I always think like, if the pandemic didn't happen, where would I be now? It's kind of scary. I think I'll be so stressed and like, just totally working so much, and things like that. But now that the pandemic has happened, I'm like, Oh, I'm prioritising enjoyment over career now. I would say like, before my career opportunities that I was taking, it was all like growing, hustling, how can I like get promoted? How can I get more money? But now my choices I like, How can I enjoy this more? What can I do to like, you know, what opportunities? What do I want to take? It's now based on what will I enjoy the most? Yeah, so I think it's interesting, that shift. And that shift is actually like, we're like two people, but it's actually quite representative of how the whole world has kind of shifted in their way of thinking. So there is a survey that was done across Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia, and the UK, by Employment Hero. Their report is called Wellness at Work, in terms of our relationship with wellness at work now post pandemic, and it's quite interesting, because it's very similar themes. Like there was a couple of themes that came out of this report, which is one, burnout is spreading like wildfire across the working population. So 56% of employees have felt burnout in the last three months. So like half of the people, like one in two people, have experienced burnout, which is quite a lot, actually. Two, the pandemic has shifted people's relationship with working. So 43% agree that COVID-19 has decreased the importance they place on their career, which I guess Wendy and I have just talked to, which is true, we'd be part of that 43%. But there's also like a lot of positive sentiments around workplaces. So 51% rated their employees commitment to improving well being is good. So we're actually seeing more workplaces commit to workplace wellbeing, which is really nice.
Wendy
Yeah, I feel like when I picture it, because obviously I'm a visual person, right? It's like this massive like reset button, that I feel like the pandemic was like as if someone was pressing that pause or reset button. And it wasn't just for every single employee to think about their entire life, but it was also for organisations to think about, like, how can we better serve our employees or, like, how do we make sure people don't leave you.
Tracy
Otherwise, people are leaving, like the great eesignation. Like we saw so many people leave post-pandemic, because they realised they weren't happy with their jobs anymore.
Wendy
Yeah. But also, it gave every individual that permission to ask for more, as well. Like, I don't think I've ever felt so confident, being like, know your self worth know, like, how much you should be negotiating for. And it was because of this, like whole great resignation, and like quiet quitting movement, that you can select what you want to devote yourself to, and how you want to spend your time as well.
Tracy
Yeah. So should we move into talking about the contention around quiet quitting? So there's actually a lot of criticism going around quiet quitting. Like, I think we talked about both of us kind of, like, we've picked out the positive elements of it in terms of like, balance and like, putting not, you know, work as your identity like, so taking out the positives of that. But there's actually a lot of hate going around for quiet quitting. I don't know if you've read much about it, or you know, when you heard about, but basically, there's a lot of criticism around like the idea of doing the bare minimum. People are saying, like, isn't quiet quitting just, you're just doing your job? Yeah, what you're being paid for, right? It's just like, like, definition is technically you're working your job, job description, you're doing 9-5, you log off in time. So people are kind of like, what is that? Like, that's just you're doing your job? So I think it's interesting. I think it's like, the name of it, or the description of it. And people are saying that, there's a risk of people who are like prioritising their wellbeing might be looked upon negatively, because they might be associated with quiet quitting. Or like laziness. Yeah. And it's the term that, for some reason, I think the name of it is associated with like, doing the bare minimum, being lazy, not showing up for work, not going above and beyond. But people are saying, that's just like, work. Like, that's what it should be. So, I think it's interesting that this conversation is happening. And it's interesting to see like, a trend could pop up in social media. And now it's like, becoming a real topic that people are talking about.
Wendy
Yeah, I think that's the difference between an organisation that can get onto this train and harness the power of quiet quitting, right? Versus people who are stuck in pre-pandemic ways. And who maybe say like, I'm thinking about people who work in institutions and have worked in that same job for years and years, and they're not willing to accept that, like the way work has always been is actually changing now. And I honestly think that organisations that will thrive are the ones that can buy into this and make an opportunity out of it.
Tracy
Yeah. I think it's about like, I don't know, I don't like the term of quiet quitting because it sounds negative.
Wendy
It does. It's got a negative connotation.
Tracy
Yeah, I wouldn't ever say I'm quiet quitting, because that sounds like yeah, like the negative connotation. It just doesn't feel right for what it's describing. Like, it's weird, because I feel like what you're saying, definitely, I think employers need to jump on the train of like, putting employees as the number one priority, and prioritising people's wellbeing so they actually enjoy work, and they actually feel good at work and actually have healthy boundaries. So, they don't have to default to something like quiet quitting.
Wendy
That makes sense. Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's kind of like, if you really take a step back and think about it, if your employees are happy, then they're probably going to perform better. But then if you try and pressure them to go above and beyond and like, place, extra pressure on them stress. Yeah, like that's not going to lead to a good outcome.
Tracy
Yeah. Like you want your employees to go above and beyond because they want to, not because they feel like they're forced to. Like they want to get fulfilment out of it. That's why they've gone above and beyond. You don't want them to go, Why am I working so hard? I'm not going to do anything more than what you've given to me. Like, if I was an employer, I wouldn't want my employees to be like disengaged. You don't want them to disengage and just do the bare minimum, you do want them to go above and beyond. But then it's a balance in terms of the employees need to be getting something out of that, meaningful work, and they want to be able to do that, like if they want to do that, they should do that, if that makes sense.
Yeah. It should be like, employee driven rather than like, instruction coming from like, top down. It should be self motivated.
Yeah. And I think another thing with quiet quitting, that kind of bothers me is the idea that like, you work nine to five, and then you live your life. Like, it sounds like people are like rejecting the idea of working because they want to live their life. But for me, it's like, work can also be a source of enjoyment and purpose and growth. So you can actually get stuff out of work. So some people might want to put extra hours because personally, they're getting something out of it. Whereas it feels like like, I don't know, there's a movement there that's going like, don't work, just live your life that thing, you know?
Wendy
Yeah, like, why do they need to be two separate things? I think for you and me, because our work or our careers have always been driven by passion, like what we love doing. We're, you know, the lucky ones, where we know that the work that we do is related to our personal lives as well. So I feel like it's easier for us to bring our whole selves to work. But I feel like quiet quitting or this culture has helped me bring my whole self to work a little bit more, because I found an organisation where I feel like I'm, I am myself, and I'm comfortable being, you know, 100% myself, rather than having a persona, or being like, a perfect version of yourself. Like, this is a roundabout way to explain it. But I think everyone's just chilled out more. Yeah, but I think the term quiet quitting doesn't really explain that. Well, like I think everyone has realised that, at the end of the day, we're all human. And the work that we're doing is a small part of our life. So why don't we bring, you know, our whole selves to work? Yeah, so that we can perform our best as well.
Tracy
Let's rebrand quiet quitting, guys. We're not doing it justice. I feel like the concept of like, yeah, like, you know, having like enjoyment, fulfilment out of the stuff that you do, and then having balance, it's so good, but the terminology feels negative.
Wendy
It just makes it seem like you're putting less effort in. But honestly, you're just putting effort into other places. But that also has a subsequent effect on what you do at work.
Tracy
Yeah. And you can still work hard during your nine to five, you know, and not be perceived as lazy. But, yeah. I also think that the fact that this was a Gen Z trend probably, sorry Gen Z, but like -
That's why it gets hate right?
Yeah, like, seriously, I feel like the fact that this trend came from Tiktok, it's associated with Gen Z, and probably like, older people are going, Oh, another Tiktok trend. You know, like, another Gen Z stupid trend thing, but it's actually like, not.
Wendy
That's what I mean. Like, if you don't embrace things that pop up. Like, the future of the workforce is going to be Gen Z and beyond. So why try and like, not try to understand them, and push back on them? But rather than like, understanding them and harnessing what you can.
Tracy
I agree. Like Gen Z, a lot of respect to them, because, I feel like that's the generation that really takes risk and do things very differently. And it's almost too different from for older generations, because they're like, What the heck is going on? I don't know what's happening. So then they default to hating on it. And then once that concept gets, like, picked up, normalise, the older generations are like, Oh, this is actually a safe thing to do. Then it gets adopted, like Tiktok, for example, Tiktok started with Gen Z, like doing dances. Was what was it before? It was something before, you Gen Z's know. It was another platform before, it was like singing, dancing, and that was specifically for Gen Z, and then it went mainstream. I guess, older generations, were like, Oh, this is a safe platform to use. And now everyone's jumped on it. And now Gen Z's have left Tiktok and gone to find like, BeReal or something like that. I think it's really interesting.
Wendy
Yeah. Like my mom knows about Tiktok now. Yeah, it was a very big surprise to me. Because someone that her someone that she knows, told her about it. And that person that told her about it was like, you know, in their 60s as well. You know what I mean? So it's just like, I think like, older people are more risk averse. And I see this in my everyday work, like, they're so against change, because they just have like, this whole mentality that it's not the right way or it's like, not what they've grown up with, or, you know, things have been the same for a really long time. So I feel like the pandemic itself helped change things to be a lot more revolutionary, a lot quicker as well.
Tracy
Yeah. It's like instead of, like you said, instead of employers thinking, Oh, quiet quitting, what is that? People just being lazy? Think about like, why is this trend coming up? You know, like, and how can you harness it? Like Wendy said, to make your workplace better.
Wendy
Yeah. In my eyes, like if I was to define quiet quitting, I would just say like, it's just people realising that there's more to life than work. Honestly, you will still work and you'll still put your hours in, you're still put your effort in, but that's not where your life starts and ends. You know, there's more to it than that.
Tracy
Yeah. And I'm not feeling guilty for taking time off work or putting other things on top of work, prioritising other things over work. I also had a thought in terms of like privilege, like, is privileged involved in quiet quitting? Like, does it take privilege to quiet quit? Because I think some people have to hustle. Yeah, for their livelihoods. There are some groups over others that really need to hustle to get their foot in the door to get to the next level. So, I feel like there's also privilege with having the option to quiet quit, to do the bare minimum and like not, you know, go above and beyond to impress your superiors to get that promotion, because some people actually really need that promotion for their livelihoods.
Wendy
Yeah, like if you think about our parents, that's exactly what it was for them, right? They needed to hustle because they had dependencies. Or they started from nothing. And so hustling was a means of like freedom or comfort, which they never experienced before that. Whereas for us, I think the fact that we can take mental health days, the fact that we can, you know, just be like, Oh, I don't feel like putting in 100% today because I don't feel great. Like our parents had to probably push through, like, I've seen my mum pushed through, like, sickness, health, you know, in order to like, put food for us on the table every day. I definitely do think like, we do have a privilege and it's, like, really important to recognise that. So, I love that you brought that up.
Tracy
Yeah, I think we're lucky to be able to even choose to like clock off at five.
Wendy
Yeah, for sure. Because for some people, the day never ends, like yeah, you know, they go to bed, but then they're constantly thinking about work.
Tracy
Yeah, we used to work with people at Woolies, who were like parents and they would work nine to five jobs and then afterwards go work at Woolies. Stocking shelves, things like that, to put food on the table.
Wendy
Exactly. Whereas for us, it's like, this is only job and it's enough for for us to enjoy our lives.
Tracy
Yeah. Have weekends.
Wendy
Yeah, exactly.
Tracy
We're lucky, guys.
Wendy
Take like, take a moment to pause, reflect and like, be grateful.
Tracy
Yeah, be grateful. So I want to talk about how quiet quitting conflicts potentially with our cultural values? Or does it conflict with our cultural values? Being from East Asian backgrounds, I feel like hard work has always been associated with like Asians. Yes, people go Asians are really, really hard workers.
Wendy
Or like overachievers or like top of the list of education.
Tracy
Yeah. So I wonder if it's harder for Asians to quiet quit?
Wendy
Yeah, because it's like, we have to unlearn behaviours that have been modelled right in front of us, but also drilled into us. Yeah, growing up, you know. So I definitely do think that quiet quitting would be more difficult for people who have just hustled their entire life.
Tracy
Yeah, like, I took a look at it. Like, why do Asians work? I literally Googled that. I don't know if it's the right thing to Google. Why do Asians work so hard? So the answer is...
Wendy
Is there an answer?
Tracy
I mean, there's like, kind of, like, a lot of East Asian culture, Southeast Asian cultures or even Asian cultures are rooted in Confucianism, I think it always comes back to Confucianism, in terms of what we value, or what was valued back in the days. Confucius values, like, promote prioritising the community over the individual, social harmony, loyalty, respect towards superiors and perfection in work. So it's really just a cultural value that has been embedded over generations of generation and generations, which is probably attributed to why it shows up as hard work. So, it's interesting. And then it's also like, maybe, with our parents being second generation Australians, we've seen, I guess, our families have come from developing countries. So for them, literally, the thought process is the harder we work, the more successful we can be, and the less vulnerable we we. Yeah, so it's literally like, it's a formula that they they know that works, if that makes sense. It's like the key to survival. Yeah, work hard, be success, have money.
Wendy
Like you'd be comfortable after that, right? I remember a time when I started working from home. Sometimes I'd like not really have much work to do. And I think I'd just been like the backyard like playing with my dog. And my mum would be like, Don't you have work? Is it okay, if you'd like take a break? I'm like, Yeah, it's fine. But it's just like very foreign to them. Because, you know, they're, I feel like, their work is so important to them, and they don't want to kind of step out of their role and like bludge or give their bosses a reason to fire them. Yeah. Whereas for us, I think, well, when I started working at Deloitte, I was like I constantly always on Teams, and I was like, oh, I need to make sure that I'm online. Like, I wasn't lazy or anything but like if I needed to go to like toilet or something like, oh, press the spacebar make sure like I'm online or like if I'm doing something for my mum, like making sure like, I have presence, but no one's actually looking at your status. Now, I don't care.
Tracy
It's so true. Like when my Teams goes to 'Away', I'm like, quick, move the mouse.
Wendy
Like, you could just be like on a different application doing other work. But yeah, like that pressure. I feel like that stems from, you know, always need to be switched on always needing to be, you know, working hard putting in 110%. And that's what leads to burnout. But yeah, to your point, I think it's like, a lot of it is not just the working environment that you're in, but it's also what's been ingrained in us growing up.
Tracy
Yeah. And I think also being constantly reminded how much our parents and elders sacrifice for us as well. And like, also feeling grateful for that and going, Oh, I'm going to repay them by working hard.
Wendy
It's crazy. Because it's like, okay, that's not necessarily a childhood trauma, like working hard is not necessarily childhood trauma, right. But then I feel like we're at an age where we're questioning a lot of things that we grew up with. And now's like the time that we're almost like picking and choosing, what are the things our parents taught us that I want to take on into my adult life, versus the things that were drilled into me, but it's actually really unhealthy. I need to unlearn.
Tracy
I want to know what our children will be like. Like, what kind of mentalities would they have?
Wendy
You know, I actually think about this quite frequently, not because I want kids now, but it's more so like, when you see people with kids, and their kids are like, lazy or whatever, like, you're like, their parents must not teach them very well, right? And then you reflect back on like, my kids never gonna be like that. My kid work hard. Or I want my parents to teach my kids what they told me. That's what I think about as well.
Tracy
But in a sense, you can't, like, maybe can't even teach that. Yeah, because it's the environment you grew up with, like, they're never gonna grow up in a place where like, literally you don't know when the next paycheck is coming in.
Wendy
Yeah. But I think like, I think we have the luxury of being able to craft a particular lifestyle for our kids, because we have the means to now. Whereas like you said, for our, for our parents, like, they prioritise tutoring, and they didn't allow us to do like, extracurricular sports, because they knew sport is not a career. You know, like, that's the mentality, not saying that athletes, like I have a lot of respect for athletes. But for them, they're like, No, I think sending our kids to tutoring is a better use of our money and their time. So that's what we're going to do. But I feel like for us, now we have the luxury to choose, and to craft a particular lifestyle for our kids and the future generations as well. I think it's just making me more conscious of it. If anything, like that's what I have to be grateful for, in understanding this new culture that we're like heading.
Tracy
Yeah, yeah. So I think that's kind of a good place for us to like, have our closing thoughts on this new quiet quitting movement or hustle culture hustle mentality? Like, what is our personal take from it? What lessons can we learn from this? And what are we going to do moving forward?
Wendy
It's always really hard to answer questions like this, because we're like in the thick of it right now.
Tracy
It's so new, right? By the time this episode airs, I reckon there's going to be like, more information or more things about this topic that will come out that maybe we weren't aware of as well.
Wendy
Yeah. And having talked about it in this episode, I think I'm more conscious of it now. So, now I'm gonna think about it and reflect on it a lot more. But for me at the moment, I think it's about trying to find the in between, right. So the balance between hustling, but also enjoying the slower moments in life. My greatest lesson has been that my work doesn't define me. But it also means that I'm not like disengaging from it completely, or having just thrown it out the door and just being like, Oh, I'm just not going to think about it.
Tracy
It doesn't define you, but it's still part of your identity.
Wendy
Yeah. Like, it's still important to me. And as a result of that, like having found a workplace that not only aligns to my values, but respects like people, just as human beings in general and their mental health, like I have a mental health day on Monday coming up, and I get one every two months. Like that has made me realise like that it is possible to find a place that suits you and what's important to you, but you also have like the power to shape you the way that you work and the future or the environment that you want to work within. So that's kind of what I've taken not just from quiet quitting, but like, you know, the great resignation, pandemic, working from home like everything encapsulated all in one.
Tracy
Yeah, yeah, I think what I'm very excited about with this whole movement is how workplace wellbeing is now going to be even more of a focus. I think workplaces are picking this up. They're being a part of the conversation. And I'm very, very excited to see kind of where the industry takes it in terms of how can we make better workplaces for happier workers, I guess. And then also like, giving people permission to pick and choose what works for them. And I think it's not about identifying with one or another, you know, whether you like the idea of quiet quitting or not, but it's like, now you have permission to actually think about how you want to shape your work experience. So I'm very excited for that. And I would like to see quiet quitting advance more in terms of like, I think I have a feeling it's going to get a new name, if that makes sense.
Wendy
I hope so. Because I don't think that it does, like quiet quitting, the term itself, does it justice.
Tracy
Yeah. I think as this trend kind of advances and moves, I feel like it's going to open up for like another bigger name or thing that encapsulates more of like, the positive elements of it. Workplace wellbeing, essentially, or balance. So onto our dinner table questions, the first set of dinner table questions for the season. Very exciting. Okay, the first one is, what emotion is the easiest for you to experience?
Wendy
Wow. I'm like, what are my options? For me to experience or to express?
Tracy
Experience, with your heart with your body.
Wendy
Like happiness? No. Like, I need an A, B, C, D option.
Tracy
Okay, like anger, love, happiness. sadness, anxiety.
Wendy
What I'm thinking about is like, laughing like humour.
Tracy
Oh, yeah. Like joy.
Wendy
Yeah, joy. I think joy is a good word. How are you?
Tracy
I think mine too. I think I default easiest to like, joy. Yeah, that's very easy to experience.
Wendy
I feel like that's what we default to.
Tracy
I can find joy in a lot of things. I can find humour in a lot of things. Even in stressful situations, I can find laughter.
Wendy
Yeah, that's exactly what I thought initially. Yeah.
Tracy
So joy is the answer for both of us. Okay, for those on audio, we are actually recording this on a video as well. So it's actually quite distracting. Yeah, go on Instagram. Check it out. Okay, second question. What is the weirdest scar you have? And how did you get?
Wendy
Okay, mine's not a scar. It's the dent in my head to back. Apparently, my parents told me that it was because I didn't get rolled enough in the baby. I was like sleeping like, like on the back of my head too much. Because apparently as babies, you're always on your tummy and stuff because the tissue around your head or something is like very soft. And you're obviously still growing into it. So when they took me to the doctor's to get like x-rays and stuff, apparently, that was the reason why. This is what my parents told me. So yeah, how about you?
Tracy
For me, I've got these two dots, very faint on my ankle. They're almost gone now. It looks like snake bites, but I got hooked. Yeah, I got hooked with a fishing hook when I was younger, in my ankle. Because my cousins were like fishing and then they got a fish and they were like oh my god floundering what I do with it. So they were like pulling the string and then I was standing behind and it went back and hooked into my ankle. So, I got fishing hooked. So, they caught me as a fish. I had to get rushed to like hospital or whatever. Okay, it wasn't that, I got driven to the hospital, sorry that was very dramatic. They had to clip it out. So, the hook goes in one hole but they have to take it out in another hole if that makes sense.
Wendy
What is one thing you think you're too old to enjoy but still do?
Tracy
Like really cheesy teenage films.
Wendy
Oh, yeah. Like Nicholas Sparks.
Tracy
Okay no, I don't like those.
Wendy
Like To All The Boys?
Tracy
Yeah, yeah, like those. Every time a good Netflix teen movie comes out I'm like, Yay, and I realised I'm like almost 30, watching high school romance.
Wendy
Yeah, no, I agree with that. But what else? Honestly, you took mine.
Tracy
You can't have the same answer as me.
Wendy
No, I actually thought about this the other day, like I'm trying to remember what I was doing. Oh, like skipping. I think sometimes people if I tell people like, oh, I skip, and I do tricks, like that might seem really premature. Yeah, like I really enjoy skipping, and I think some people might think it's like, super premature.
Tracy
Oh, I have one. I love doing kids' arts and crafts activities. Like DIY kiddy stuff like painting plasters. Origami, stuff like that. Yeah.
Wendy
Well, that's it for episode 1 of season 2. I felt like that was a pretty like, cool subject to talk about to kick off the season. Because it's something that obviously is trending right now. And we want to be like, hashtag trendy. But yeah, let us know your thoughts, because I think it's still something that's evolving. And I'm 100% sure our opinions are probably going to change after what we've talked about today . But yeah, as always, if you want to chat, throw us a DM. We are on Instagram @aseatatourtable.podcast. But also, we have a website. It's aseatatourtable.com.au.
Tracy
Yes, go check it out. Go give us some clicks, click through some pages, click some buttons.
Wendy
The other thing you can also do is leave us a review.
Tracy
Oh, yes, please leave us a review. Yeah, it's good to be back. Welcome to Season 2, everybody.
Wendy
Yeah. Until next time, bye.